Trump

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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:57 am

I finally found a quote from Harry Truman that I've been seeking for a while:

Harry S. Motherfucking Truman wrote:...That brings me to another danger which threatens our democracy from within, and that is the "big lie." The "big lie" is a weapon of political warfare which was developed by the Communists and perfected by Hitler, and is now being used on a worldwide scale by the Soviet Union.

The technique of the "big lie" consists of two things. It consists first of making a charge against one's opponents which is frightening and horrible and so extreme that nobody could believe that a decent person would make it if it were not true. Hitler explained this very clearly. He said that if a lie is bold enough people will think there is some truth in it because it would never occur to them, in their own experience, to lie on such an exaggerated scale.

The second part of the "big lie" technique is to keep repeating the lie over and over again, ignoring all proof to the contrary.

The "big lie" technique is immoral and subversive. It is not a weapon which democratic society can afford to use. It violates the rules of the political game which underlie our constitutional form of government. It violates them in just the same way that riot and revolution violate them.

We have no place for this sort of thing in America. If we permit its use, our constitutional form of government can be destroyed. It is a tool used by Hitler and Stalin, and it is just as un-American as they are.

Unfortunately, there is a tendency in this country today to resort to the use of the "big lie" in order to reap personal and partisan advantage. It is a "big lie," for example, to say that we tolerate Communists and other disloyal persons in our Government. It is a "big lie" to attack one of the greatest generals and patriots whom this country ever had and call him a traitor.

A man who uses the weapon of the "big lie" is not a good man. He should be rejected by all good citizens, regardless of party. Partisan feeling often runs high in election campaigns. That is understandable. But it should not lead us to permit the use of this dangerous Communist technique in American politics.

--Harry S. Truman
September 17, 1952



Sound familiar?

LINK TO TRUMAN LIBRARY HERE

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Re: Trump

Postby Pintgudge » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:40 pm

Why?


Just, Why?

Just because this supreme asshole cannot refrain from engaging in a pissing match,

I am having nuclear war nightmares.

This isn't the kind of thing I can express to anyone near me.

Thank you for hearing.
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Re: Trump

Postby DerGolgo » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:53 pm

Truman was cribbing there. If not from Goebbels, than from the 1946 American publication that had attributed it to him. To whit:

If you repeat a lie often enough, people will believe it, and you will even come to believe it yourself.


Goebbels was ever so good at this trick I've seen repeated and repeated by self-styled anti-socialistst. Accusing the other guy of what you know perfectly well you're doing, but doing it first, so they look like they're trying a lame deflection when they try to do it:
The English follow the principle that when one lies, it should be a big lie, and one should stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Sun Aug 20, 2017 7:10 am

I rather liked this. :mrgreen:

Image

Also, this from the NYT wherein a former pro-Trump guy recants his Trumpism: I Voted for Trump. And I Sorely Regret It.

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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:11 am

Also, this:

Johnny Fucking Cash's Kids wrote:A message from the children of Johnny Cash:

We were alerted to a video of a young man in Charlottesville, a self-proclaimed neo-Nazi, spewing hatred and bile. He was wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with the name of Johnny Cash, our father. We were sickened by the association.

Johnny Cash was a man whose heart beat with the rhythm of love and social justice. He received humanitarian awards from, among others, the Jewish National Fund, B’nai Brith, and the United Nations. He championed the rights of Native Americans, protested the war in Vietnam, was a voice for the poor, the struggling and the disenfranchised, and an advocate for the rights of prisoners. Along with our sister Rosanne, he was on the advisory board of an organization solely devoted to preventing gun violence among children. His pacifism and inclusive patriotism were two of his most defining characteristics. He would be horrified at even a casual use of his name or image for an idea or a cause founded in persecution and hatred. The white supremacists and neo-Nazis who marched in Charlottesville are poison in our society, and an insult to every American hero who wore a uniform to fight the Nazis in WWII. Several men in the extended Cash family were among those who served with honor.
Our dad told each of us, over and over throughout our lives, ‘Children, you can choose love or hate. I choose love.’

We do not judge race, color, sexual orientation or creed. We value the capacity for love and the impulse towards kindness. We respect diversity, and cherish our shared humanity. We recognize the suffering of other human beings, and remain committed to our natural instinct for compassion and service.

To any who claim supremacy over other human beings, to any who believe in racial or religious hierarchy: we are not you. Our father, as a person, icon, or symbol, is not you. We ask that the Cash name be kept far away from destructive and hateful ideology.

We Choose Love.

Rosanne Cash
Kathy Cash
Cindy Cash
Tara Cash
John Carter Cash

August 16, 2017

‘Not one of us can rest, be happy, be at home, be at peace with ourselves, until we end hatred and division.’ Rep. John Lewis


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Re: Trump

Postby DerGolgo » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:54 am

Just gonna leave that here.
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Re: Trump

Postby xtian » Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:53 pm

september 2015:
red wrote:What really worries me about trump and his ilk is the fact that he is bringing all of the closeted racists, misogynist and pro-white shitheads out of the woodwork. Giving them an excuse to get all 'rawled up and show their true feelings.


september 2017:
some nazis are nice people too you know.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:37 pm

xtian wrote:september 2015:
red wrote:What really worries me about trump and his ilk is the fact that he is bringing all of the closeted racists, misogynist and pro-white shitheads out of the woodwork. Giving them an excuse to get all 'rawled up and show their true feelings.


september 2017:
some nazis are nice people too you know.


It's not like folks didn't see this shit coming. :x :yuck:

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Re: Trump

Postby red » Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:11 am

Holy shit, I got quoted for something (that wasn't stupid)!
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:37 pm

An interesting and insightful view on What Is Up and What Happened.

LINK TO ARTICLE-- Will There Always Be an England? -- BY ANDREW SULLIVAN

Andrew Sullivan wrote:It wasn’t their economic insecurity that gave us Brexit. It was that no one in charge even sensed their unease. Elites — and I count myself among the guilty — gave them nothing by way of reassurance or even a sense that they were understood instead of reviled. So all they had was Brexit. It wasn’t a rational decision; it was their only way to have their voices heard. Their pride and self-identity are bound up in it now, just as a critical slice of America’s is bound up in Trump. Which is why, despite the mounting evidence that the Brexit gambit is a disaster, they will never let it go.

Home is indeed where one starts from. Change it too rapidly and it will disintegrate. We have been fools on mass immigration, we have been fools for preventing an honest debate about the benefits and drawbacks of diversity, and we have been contemptible in our contempt for so many of our fellow citizens. Both countries are now paying a terrible, terrible price.


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Re: Trump

Postby guitargeek » Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:13 pm

I don't set great store by what Andrew Sullivan thinks.
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Re: Trump

Postby guitargeek » Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:56 am

Not that his assertion is incorrect, but it's incomplete.

Yes, low-information voters, bitterly clinging to their guns and religion, these people LOVE Trump. They're dumb, and dumb people do dumb things... but so what? Are we supposed to *pander* to them? They don't like it because the elites ignore them... well, maybe they need to to think up something worth paying attention to.
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Re: Trump

Postby Bigshankhank » Sun Apr 29, 2018 1:40 am

guitargeek wrote:Not that his assertion is incorrect, but it's incomplete.

Yes, low-information voters, bitterly clinging to their guns and religion, these people LOVE Trump. They're dumb, and dumb people do dumb things... but so what? Are we supposed to *pander* to them? They don't like it because the elites ignore them... well, maybe they need to to think up something worth paying attention to.


Among many others, I firmly believe the root of this is income inequality. By experiencing so much prosperity in the 50’s-80’s, enough of the Boomer generation was able to rig the system to benefit themselves to such an extreme that by default there was a group left behind. Honest hard working people who didn’t strive for wealth as much as some of their more ambitious peers, just security. I can respect that, my industry is built on their shoulders. But instead of security they saw their wages stagnate while jobs went overseas, leading to the products that they bought increasingly coming from overseas leading to the companies that maximized the sale of those products taking away their family businesses and resulting in their hometowns dying. The resulting economic disaster then trapped these people where they were; not only did they not want to move anyway but they were now too poor to if they had the desire. All the while their financially savvy brethren drove up the value of the things that could make them richer (real estate) which compounded the problem of financial stagnation for the poor further and further because now it was even harder for the working poor to go to where the jobs are, AND their children couldn’t afford to be on their own either without spending everything they had on housing and the fuel to commute only to make this new money gentry that much wealthier.

Look, I do well for myself, I can’t lie. I’m not by any stretch wealthy, but my bills are paid and I have economic mobility which is more than most. But I am on the front lines of an industry that is a cornerstone of human society; construction. The men and women I work with are a mix of the old guard who believed in the “honest days work would take care of their needs” seeing their wages rise and fall like a sine wave but never really going beyond where they were in their heyday in the mid 80’s, joined by the men and women who are coming here from genuine poverty and see this work and pay as their path to success. There is a palpable boundary between these two. One saw the prosperity of their fathers and uncles in the 50’s & 60’s doing the same hard work and unable to comprehend why they aren’t doing better, the other group understands that they will not see individual success but that they are laying the groundwork for their children to get ahead all the while suffering the slings and arrows of a bunch of entitled lazy old guardsmen who try to lay the blame for their failure on them. The first group had their lack of education exploited to be sold the notion that unionized labor was a path socialism (communism does not equal socialism but it was the age of Reaganism and the height of the Cold War and you know they’re both “isms” and the French do one or the other so they must be equally bad). Same logic was used to keep tax rates low and military spending high, gotta fight those Commies, sorry but your civic duty is to endure those potholes in the road because you don’t want to pay more taxes do you? This in turn changed the modern view of social assistance programs into handouts, and you don’t want YOUR tax dollars paying for someone to sit on the couch eating chicken and fries while you swing a hammer all day, do you? At the same time while corporations were cutting the throats of their own workers, they created the bugaboo of Illegal Immigrants by confounding the immigration process which allowed them to utilize cheaper local labor for work that couldn’t be shipped overseas, then directed the anger of their OG workforce on the new guys with brown skin. Lack of, or rather misdirection of tax dollars towards the military meant lowering education standards which had the dual benefit of keeping both the older workers dumb and the immigrant workforce uneducated thus ensuring they stayed bitter toward one another rather than turning their anger upwards. Couple that with a “modern” church that did an about-face and began glorifying prosperity and another pillar of the working poor’s belief structure enabled their continued stagnation.

More thoughts to come.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Sun Apr 29, 2018 11:42 am

Bigshankhank wrote:Among many others, I firmly believe the root of this is income inequality. ...

...Couple that with a “modern” church that did an about-face and began glorifying prosperity and another pillar of the working poor’s belief structure enabled their continued stagnation.


Ayup. All that and a bag of chips.

As far as how that fits vis-à-vis Sullivan's article, the point is that the folks at the top—the so-called "Elites"—need to (1) understand why so many folks voted for someone who obviously has no interest in their well being, and (2) stop being condescending assholes about it. Additionally, Sullivan's point is that this isn't exclusively an American problem as shown by Brexit.

guitargeek wrote:Yes, low-information voters, bitterly clinging to their guns and religion, these people LOVE Trump. They're dumb, and dumb people do dumb things... but so what? Are we supposed to *pander* to them? They don't like it because the elites ignore them... well, maybe they need to to think up something worth paying attention to.


Yes, it's hard not to be condescending to people who are belligerently stupid, but screaming at them and calling them drooling fuckwits (or "deplorables") isn't going to change minds. Doing so falls into the "go punch a Nazi" trap of alienating them further by confirming their belief of "everybody who disagrees with me is a sanctimonious asshole who's out to get me."

Furthermore, there has been a major shift in American/Western culture in the past 30 years. It's more obvious in some places than others, but the fundamental reality that "we" are getting browner and less Christian is threatening to a lot of people. Now that Fuckhead is prez, those folks feel a lot more comfortable expressing their fears.

Dump's election has basically opened Pandora's Box. While he's an acute problem, he's really only a symptom. Were Trump to be abducted by aliens tomorrow, we would still be in the same predicament politically, with some major fraction of the population—somewhere between 20-40%—thinking Trump's great, cultural liberalism is awful, and anything but the GOP is inherently evil.

All of this is compounded (confounded?) by "outside influences" like Russia tinkering with social media. The Ruskies aren't dumb! Shit, looks like they're doing a fantastic job of turning Americans against one another. Like bin Laden, their goal isn't necessarily to "manipulate" as much as "disrupt." They don't have to light the fire, they just need to fan the flames.

This is not a new tactic:

Image

Here's a test I keep giving myself to check my bias: Do I want Cheeto to be successful with his treaty/deal with North Korea? I should considering the lives of millions of people are potentially at stake. However there's a part of me that wants to see Trump fail just because he's Trump, which is petty, short-sighted, and stupid in the same way the GOP torpedoed everything Obama tried to do simply because he was Obama.

Therefore, while I'd love to see Trump strung up by the larger of his testicles and swung from a flagpole (or flayed and rolled in salt, or boiled in pus), I still need to hope that he (or someone) can talk sense into North Korea, et al. If he manages to avoid war I will try my best to give credit where it's due.

It won't change my overall assessment of the guy (see "boiled in pus" above), but it would be hypocritical of me to hope for his failure just to see him fail.

EDIT: Here's a prime example of the real disease, not just a symptom (though we may be getting into a chicken-and-egg situation... thoughts?): LINK TO OUTSIDE THE BELTWAY

Image

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Re: Trump

Postby guitargeek » Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:42 pm

I think you give Trump WAY too much credit for whatever is going on in the Korean peninsula.
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Re: Trump

Postby Bigshankhank » Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:31 am

According to what I've been reading, there are suggestions that in fact the North Korean's destroyed their weapons testing site to such a degree they cannot continue testing anyway, which is a primary contributing factor in them "saving face" by agreeing to stop nuclear testing. But yeah, Trump and all that will scramble to claim any victory they can while China swoops in and actually benefits from their close relationship and brings the entire peninsula into the TPP which Trump walked the US away from. But yeah, victory and all that.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:11 am

It 's a fair point -- I saw that bit about NoKo's testing site being completely fucked after I wrote before, but yeah, realpolitik is a bitch! Also, yes, Trump will try to claim credit for shit he didn't do, which is annoying, but again, I'm hoping that in the long run it's ok.

Basically I don't want to be one of those folks who're standing there as the nukes raining down gleefully screaming "SEE? I TOLD YOU SO!"

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Re: Trump

Postby Bigshankhank » Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:28 am

Jaeger wrote:It 's a fair point -- I saw that bit about NoKo's testing site being completely fucked after I wrote before, but yeah, realpolitik is a bitch! Also, yes, Trump will try to claim credit for shit he didn't do, which is annoying, but again, I'm hoping that in the long run it's ok.

Basically I don't want to be one of those folks who're standing there as the nukes raining down gleefully screaming "SEE? I TOLD YOU SO!"

--Jaeger


As I told my in-laws, ardent Trump supporters from the start, I wanted him to succeed. I still do, because even though I didn't vote for him he is the president and he along with his administration represents Me on a global stage and I remember what a laughingstock we as a country were during the W Bush years. The rising tide lifts all ships and all that, if he can genuinely bring prosperity to the country without doing social or ecological harm, yet pisses a few people off along the way well so be it. But to amplify the hatred that brought him to power the way he has, and what's worse to explicitly state that he represents only those who support him (loyalty above all) and us "losers and haters' can go suck an egg? Again I want him to succeed but the price for that success is too high. My grandchildren's children will suffer for this.
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Re: Trump

Postby motorpsycho67 » Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:01 pm

Bigshankhank wrote: I want him to succeed



His definition of success and yours are two entirely different things.
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Re: Trump

Postby Bigshankhank » Tue May 01, 2018 2:58 am

motorpsycho67 wrote:
Bigshankhank wrote: I want him to succeed



His definition of success and yours are two entirely different things.



I guess I should re-phrase that to say that I want our nation to be successful, regardless of who is president. Unfortunately as you stated the current president's definition of success is different than mine.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Tue May 01, 2018 1:25 pm

Bigshankhank wrote:
motorpsycho67 wrote:
Bigshankhank wrote: I want him to succeed

His definition of success and yours are two entirely different things.

I guess I should re-phrase that to say that I want our nation to be successful, regardless of who is president. Unfortunately as you stated the current president's definition of success is different than mine.


Yeah, all good points.

I think both BSH and I are saying the same thing: If some things actually improve under Fuckhead I'll try to appreciate those things.

However, I have yet to see or hear of anything really positive resulting from Fuckhead's actions—certainly nothing that would offset the discord and corruption.

The cartoon GG posted above is spot-the-fuck on.

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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:14 pm

It's almost funny how quiet it's been in here with everything going on.

I suppose there just isn't much to say. The news speaks for itself.

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Re: Trump

Postby Pintgudge » Tue Jul 17, 2018 2:33 pm

Well, the silence is because there are so many things he does and say that is is impossible for me to have any comment.

See, each and every one of them are just so unbelievable and impossible to be done by any person who has the best interests of the United States at heart, that I just don't know what to say.

And there is the embarrasement.

Because he is the president of my country, I am ashamed.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Wed Jul 18, 2018 6:13 am

Pintgudge wrote:Well, the silence is because there are so many things he does and say that is is impossible for me to have any comment.

See, each and every one of them are just so unbelievable and impossible to be done by any person who has the best interests of the United States at heart, that I just don't know what to say.

And there is the embarrasement.

Because he is the president of my country, I am ashamed.


Well said. If I were to get on here and rage every time Fuckhead pissed me off I would never get anything done.

I'm also extremely worried that there's still something like 20-30% of the country who's still gung-ho for Fuckboy. His performance in Helsinki was self-evident. That the GOP has apparently misplaced both its spine and gonads is shocking in the extreme.

I saw this comic over a year ago but it sums it up perfectly:

Image

Washington, Jefferson, Madison, et al must be spinning in their graves.

--Jaeger
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Re: Trump

Postby guitargeek » Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:39 am

LORDY, WHAT A SHIT SHOW!
Elitist, arrogant, intolerant, self-absorbed.
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Re: Trump

Postby Pintgudge » Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:17 pm

From the Guardian.

In Britain, the Conservative MP Nicholas Soames, the grandson of the prime minister and first world war veteran Winston Churchill, criticized Trump on Twitter as “not fit to represent this great country”.

“They died with their face to the foe and that pathetic inadequate [Trump] couldn’t even defy the weather to pay his respects to The Fallen,” he wrote. “Such a terrible insult to the American Fallen who died far from their homes and country, and he couldn’t be bothered.”

How much longer can this be tolerated?
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Re: Trump

Postby Bigshankhank » Sat Nov 10, 2018 3:22 pm

Pintgudge wrote:From the Guardian.

In Britain, the Conservative MP Nicholas Soames, the grandson of the prime minister and first world war veteran Winston Churchill, criticized Trump on Twitter as “not fit to represent this great country”.

“They died with their face to the foe and that pathetic inadequate [Trump] couldn’t even defy the weather to pay his respects to The Fallen,” he wrote. “Such a terrible insult to the American Fallen who died far from their homes and country, and he couldn’t be bothered.”

How much longer can this be tolerated?

We shouldn’t put up with this kind of insult to our president and our nation one day longer. Time to nuke the shit out of England.
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Re: Trump

Postby Jaeger » Sat Nov 10, 2018 7:19 pm

Bigshankhank wrote:
Pintgudge wrote:From the Guardian.

In Britain, the Conservative MP Nicholas Soames, the grandson of the prime minister and first world war veteran Winston Churchill, criticized Trump on Twitter as “not fit to represent this great country”.


We shouldn’t put up with this kind of insult to our president and our nation one day longer. Time to nuke the shit out of England.


Image

--Jaeger

(P.S. -- It would be funnier if PG's post weren't so deadly fucking honest.)
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Re: Trump

Postby DerGolgo » Sun Nov 11, 2018 12:28 am

Bigshankhank wrote: Time to nuke the shit out of England.


a) I wouldn't mind so much, but the fallout would travel across my beloved Scotland. So how about, instead, you make like the English used to do to get their empire. Give the Scots a pile of modern weapons and retreat to a safe distance.

b) England can nuke ya right back.
From the grave.
See, their nuclear ballistic missile submarines, they are stationed in Scotland - like I said, and retreat to a safe distance...
Each boat goes near the surface at least once per day while on patrol, to check for orders on the satellites. If the satellites don't respond, or suchlike, they tune in to the BBC World Service.
If the BBC World Service is not on air, standing order is: Assume Britain no longer exists. Open the safe.
The safe contains a hand-written, top-secret letter. The only person who knows what's in that letter is the PM who was sitting the last time the boat went to sea, who also wrote it.
These "letters of last resort" tell the submarine commander what do do with the nukes. In regular, peacetime service, that's 8 Trident II missiles, with 40 warheads between them, and IIRC, a specific, Royal Warrant W88 variant that got extra Uranium, for just over 500 kt boom (=~32+ times Hiroshima).

So, ask yourself. Theresa May. Basically Trump, with a better toupee and if he had no pe... basically, Trump with a better toupee. She has written those letters. I think the only consideration she might have made for former allies would be "except one missile, and use that to nuke fucking Brussels". Yes, I think the PM would have dropped the f-bomb in such a letter (pun intended).
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Re: Trump

Postby Pintgudge » Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:33 am

Back to the real meaning, I like Justin's response very well.
If man is fit to be governed, is any man fit to govern?

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