Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion thread

The place to come if you've been with us for years or it's your first time here. General yakking about anything motorcycle related. Think of it as the internet coffeehouse for the UTMC.

Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion thread

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:00 am

The UTMC is both a 'virtual' motorcycle group and a real one.

Real people who rode real motorcycles together in real life Denver in the 1990s created a web-page to explore and occupy a burgeoning 'online' world of virtual community.

Real people who never had met IRL populated a series of message boards that sprang and evolved from that origin, some of them real world neighbors, some of them never-to-meet digital acquaintances from around the world.

As the online world of connectivity has changed, so has this thread of motorcycle connectivity.

The rise of face book has killed, and will kill, many previously existing online forum communities.

The rise of massively-multiplayer gaming worlds is ongoing and evolving.

These are facts.

This is a thread to discuss the possibilities, technical matters, strengths, liabilities, drawbacks, and advantages that might be a part of the UTMC in virtual worlds.

I'll start.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:07 am

Three weeks ago I rode my motorcycle 400 miles to Gettysburg PA to meet my UTMC compatriots in the real world environment of the Cross Keys hotel.

I parked my motorcycle next to Aggrotron's motorcycle and talked to him about playing Grand Theft Auto as massively-multiplayer online virtual world.

Within the world of GTA, systems exist to allow users to create and maintain their own groups with communication, identification, and continuity.

Aggrotron is and has been actively engaged in trying to bring the ethos of the UTMC to a virtual motorcycling group within the possibilities and limitations of the GTA universe.

I find this effort, and the possibilities and questions that it raises, totally fascinating.

Lets have a conversation about what it could mean for a virtual motorcycle group composed of real people to have a virtual motorcycle group composed of real people in both the specific GTA universe and in any other current or yet-to-be-known persistent massively-multiplayer universes.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby MATPOC » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:39 am

I'm actively trying to unplug from virtual world... mainly Facebook, it has enabled me to know everything all the time and at the same time been a killer of my time, more than any game I ever played. Have no interest in GTA, or any game, period, my only objection to it all was "someone added some 1% stuff", knowing it's Aggrotron makes me care less about it, still however the "1%" thing bothers me. Perhaps it has a different meaning in GTA, but knot knowing WTF is "18+ mic required" I also don't know what "1% rules" are in VR... just don't care for "1%" next to UTMC stuff
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Toonce(s) » Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:57 am

I don’t see what constructive purpose there is in gamefying the UTMC. Unless such a benefit can be established then I think the GTA doppelgänger should be stripped of all UTMC content and references.

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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:02 am

Something that's important to understand about the formation of groups within a specific universe, in this case the GTA universe, is that this universe is going to have specific and proprietary rules.

At this point in history, which includes the present moment as well as my childhood playing Dungeons and Dragons, to play a game you have to choose one of the character types included in the ruleset of the game. I consider myself to be neither a warrior, an assassin, nor a paladin, but when playing a game you have to start by building a character within the rules of the game.

Grand Theft Auto is a game of criminality and mayhem. The possibilities for character design are greater than they have ever been before, but they remain limited within that universe. 'Balding middle-aged man who likes riding European sporting motorcycles to find hot dog stands' is not one of the core categories. If I want to play the game, I may have to choose to be 'Assasin type 1, hairstyle type 'bald', clothing type 'biker alt. 3 color black' and bike type 'Mock-cati 900' and take it from there. Maybe I don't want to commit crimes at all. Maybe victimizing non-player-characters to steal their in-game money and build my experience is distasteful to me. Maybe the fact that the designers of the GTA universe allow a group creation system and named it '1%' is distasteful to me. These are real concerns. What remains is the fact that there is a large and interesting gameplay world which can be experienced and explored with other real people in real time, as we manipulate our digital avatars. We have a choice available to dis-regard certain aspects of the gameplay and emphasise others. The possibilities available are going to grow over time. We can choose to be a part of it.

https://kotaku.com/inside-the-world-of-gta-vs-intense-biker-gangs-1601368287
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:07 am


Neuromancer's release was not greeted with fanfare, but it hit a cultural nerve,[10] quickly becoming an underground word-of-mouth hit.[2] It became the first novel to win the Nebula, the Hugo, and Philip K. Dick Award for paperback original,[11] an unprecedented achievement described by the Mail & Guardian as "the sci-fi writer's version of winning the Goncourt, Booker and Pulitzer prizes in the same year".[12] The novel thereby legitimized cyberpunk as a mainstream branch of science fiction literature. It is among the most-honored works of science fiction in recent history, and appeared on Time magazine's list of 100 best English-language novels written since 1923.[13] The novel was also nominated for a British Science Fiction Award in 1984.[14]

Neuromancer is considered "the archetypal cyberpunk work".[15] and outside science fiction, it gained unprecedented critical and popular attention,[1] as an "evocation of life in the late 1980s",[16] although The Observer noted that "it took the New York Times 10 years" to mention the novel.[17] By 2007 it had sold more than 6.5 million copies worldwide.[11]

The novel has had significant linguistic influence, popularizing such terms as cyberspace and ICE (Intrusion Countermeasures Electronics). Gibson himself coined the term "cyberspace" in his novelette "Burning Chrome", published in 1982 by Omni magazine.[18] It was only through its use in Neuromancer that the term Cyberspace gained enough recognition to become the de facto term for the World Wide Web during the 1990s.[19][20] The portion of Neuromancer usually cited in this respect is:

The matrix has its roots in primitive arcade games. … Cyberspace. A consensual hallucination experienced daily by billions of legitimate operators, in every nation, by children being taught mathematical concepts. … A graphic representation of data abstracted from banks of every computer in the human system. Unthinkable complexity. Lines of light ranged in the nonspace of the mind, clusters and constellations of data. Like city lights, receding.[21]

The 1999 cyberpunk science fiction film The Matrix particularly draws from Neuromancer both eponym and usage of the term "matrix".[22] "After watching The Matrix, Gibson commented that the way that the film's creators had drawn from existing cyberpunk works was 'exactly the kind of creative cultural osmosis" he had relied upon in his own writing.'"[23]

In his afterword to the 2000 re-issue of Neuromancer, fellow author Jack Womack goes as far as to suggest that Gibson's vision of cyberspace may have inspired the way in which the Internet developed (particularly the World Wide Web), after the publication of Neuromancer in 1984. He asks "[w]hat if the act of writing it down, in fact, brought it about?" (269).

Norman Spinrad, in his 1986 essay "The Neuromantics" which appears in his non-fiction collection Science Fiction in the Real World, saw the book's title as a triple pun: "neuro" referring to the nervous system; "necromancer"; and "new romancer". The cyberpunk genre, the authors of which he suggested be called "neuromantics", was "a fusion of the romantic impulse with science and technology", according to Spinrad.

Writing in F&SF in 2005, Charles de Lint noted that while Gibson's technological extrapolations had proved imperfect (in particular, his failure to anticipate the cellular telephone), "Imagining story, the inner workings of his characters' minds, and the world in which it all takes place are all more important.[24]

Lawrence Person in his "Notes Toward a Postcyberpunk Manifesto" (1998) identified Neuromancer as "the archetypal cyberpunk work",[15] and in 2005, Time included it in their list of the 100 best English-language novels written since 1923, opining that "[t]here is no way to overstate how radical [Neuromancer] was when it first appeared."[13] Literary critic Larry McCaffery described the concept of the matrix in Neuromancer as a place where "data dance with human consciousness... human memory is literalized and mechanized... multi-national information systems mutate and breed into startling new structures whose beauty and complexity are unimaginable, mystical, and above all nonhuman."[1] Gibson later commented on himself as an author circa Neuromancer that "I'd buy him a drink, but I don't know if I'd loan him any money," and referred to the novel as "an adolescent's book".[25] The success of Neuromancer was to effect the 35-year-old Gibson's emergence from obscurity.[26]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuromancer
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:09 am

Metaverse[edit]
Main article: Metaverse
The Metaverse is a collective virtual shared space, created by the convergence of virtually enhanced physical reality and physically persistent virtual space,[6] including the sum of all virtual worlds, augmented reality, and the internet. The word metaverse combines the prefix "meta" (meaning "beyond") with "universe" and is typically used to describe the concept of a future iteration of the internet, made up of persistent, shared, 3D virtual spaces linked into a perceived virtual universe.[7]

Stephenson's Metaverse appears to its users as an urban environment, developed along a single hundred-meter-wide road, the Street, that runs the entire 65536 km (216 km) circumference of a featureless, black, perfectly spherical planet. The virtual real estate is owned by the Global Multimedia Protocol Group, a fictional part of the real Association for Computing Machinery, and is available to be bought and buildings developed thereupon.

Users of the Metaverse gain access to it through personal terminals that project a high-quality virtual reality display onto goggles worn by the user, or from low-quality public terminals in booths (with the penalty of presenting a grainy black and white appearance). Stephenson also describes a sub-culture of people choosing to remain continuously connected to the Metaverse by wearing portable terminals, goggles and other equipment; they are given the sobriquet "gargoyles" due to their grotesque appearance. The users of the Metaverse experience it from a first person perspective.

Within the Metaverse, individual users appear as avatars of any form, with the sole restriction of height, "to prevent people from walking around a mile high". Transport within the Metaverse is limited to analogs of reality by foot or vehicle, such as the monorail that runs the entire length of the Street, stopping at 256 Express Ports, located evenly at 256 km intervals, and Local Ports, one kilometer apart.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_Crash
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:10 am

Second Life is an online virtual world, developed and owned by the San Francisco-based firm Linden Lab and launched on June 23, 2003. By 2013, Second Life had approximately 1 million regular users.[1] In many ways, Second Life is similar to massively multiplayer online role-playing games; however, Linden Lab is emphatic that their creation is not a game:[2] "There is no manufactured conflict, no set objective".[3]

The virtual world can be accessed freely via Linden Lab's own client programs or via alternative Third Party Viewers.[4][5] Second Life users (also called residents) create virtual representations of themselves, called avatars, and are able to interact with places, objects, and other avatars. They can explore the world (known as the grid), meet other residents, socialize, participate in both individual and group activities, build, create, shop and trade virtual property and services with one another.

The platform principally features 3D-based user-generated content. Second Life also has its own virtual currency, the Linden Dollar, which is exchangeable with real world currency.[2][6]

Second Life is intended for people aged 16 and over, with the exception of 13–15-year-old users, who are restricted to the Second Life region of a sponsoring institution (e.g., a school).[7][8]

Built into the software is a 3D modeling tool based on simple geometric shapes, that allows residents to build virtual objects. There is also a procedural scripting language, Linden Scripting Language, which can be used to add interactivity to objects. Sculpted prims (sculpties), mesh, textures for clothing or other objects, animations, and gestures can be created using external software and imported. The Second Life terms of service provide that users retain copyright for any content they create, and the server and client provide simple digital rights management (DRM) functions.[7][9][10] However, Linden Lab changed their terms of service in August 2013, to be able to use user-generated content for any purpose.[11] The new terms of service prevent users from using textures from 3rd-party texture services, as some of them pointed out explicitly.[12]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Life
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby jae » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:13 am

Someone mentioned changing the name in-game, much like was done to put a similar group on fb without disturbing censors. I'm not totally against this idea, though having some IRL 1% interaction, can totally understand wanting to be abso-fucking-lutely clear that we (as a disorganization) are in no way associated with anything 1‰ in the real world.

However, I haven't been involved with any part of GTA's online world, so I don't really know about real world overlap, and how that might actually be perceived.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Toonce(s) » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:16 am

Why does such a thing need to be branded as UTMC and using its content? Why not call it something else and use original content?

Imagine how much more time could be sunk into it that way ;)
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:20 am

https://kotaku.com/a-few-hours-with-gta-onlines-ridiculous-biker-dlc-1787440190


Biker gangs have been a part of GTA V and GTA Online for years, but until now, they were always presented as the enemy of the player. As of yesterday, however, players can now start their own club and live the life of a biker. That is, assuming you have the cash.


Once you get a bike, buy a clubhouse, set up a club and deck yourself out in some of the new biker clothes and weapons, you might be wondering: Now what? And this is where the new update really becomes a bummer for players like myself. If you don’t have a group of friends or family you play GTA Online with regularly, a lot of the new features and mechanics will feel limited or just straight up useless. For example: You can ride in formation now in GTA Online. Doing so will fix your bike and give you health and ammo. But if you are riding solo, formations are worthless. Same with some of the new freemode missions and club features. If you have nobody in your club, then the ability to promote people isn’t going to be something you use.


It’s nice that there is content in GTA Online Bikers that solo players can enjoy, but make no mistake-this is an update focused on groups of players and friends. Luckily you can mark yourself as someone who is looking to join a club and Presidents can see this and invite you. I was able to find two players willing to join my club and we spent a few hours together doing missions and hanging out at the clubhouse. Still I would recommend players who don’t have a lot of GTA Online friends to skip creating a club and just join one instead. It’s cheaper and you’ll have more fun than riding around alone.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby red » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:25 am

MATPOC wrote:Perhaps it has a different meaning in GTA, but knot knowing WTF is "18+ mic required" I also don't know what "1% rules" are in VR... just don't care for "1%" next to UTMC stuff


I believe "18+ mic required", means players must be 18 or older, and have mic enabled headset for in game conversation.

I agree that the 1% association is not something that jives with the idea of the UTMC. Honestly, I'm torn between not really caring since it is a video game and knowing that to some people in the real 1%'er world, even the slightest "infraction" is taken very seriously. I think we can all agree it blew up way too quickly on fb, and that pattio should hold the title of Grand Mediator.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:27 am

https://www.vice.com/sv/article/8ge7e3/i-went-riding-with-the-reaper-lords-grand-theft-autos-biggest-motorcycle-club-140

The Reaper Lords are a "1% Club", meaning they only enter free-aim lobbies and abhor the use of assisted aim and auto-lock on (in real-world MCs, being in the 1% is said to mean you operate outside of the law). In a public lobby, they won't fire unless fired upon, but will respond with force if provoked. If an enemy is in a vehicle, pretty much any weapon is fair game – but against on-foot opponents, Reaper Lords are only allowed to use the assault rifle or pump shotgun. "For us, it's more challenging to live to a code," says Dirty Worka. He recalls the countless times he's been shot at by jets, or killed just so someone can take a picture and post it online boasting about their achievement of besting a Reaper Lord. In addition, while they have no problem with it, the Reaper Lords pride themselves on not being a "copycat club" like those based on the Sons of Anarchy or Hells Angels. "We set the standard," says Rusty Cage, Vice President of the LS charter, "and everybody follows off our coattails."


Back at the clubhouse, I spend some time just relaxing with the Reaper Lords. They've got a bar, obviously, and there's arm wrestling and darts to keep members entertained. At the back there's a garage where everyone can show off their latest wheels. I sit down with the club around a meeting table emblazoned with their logo, and learn about the friendlier side to the MC, what goes on when they're not hazing new recruits. Much like real-world MCs, the Lords do a lot of charity work, including a benefit ride in 2015 for Anthony Parello, a young boy who needed a liver transplant. "He's like a little brother to us," says Dirty, who also recounts details of the work they've done for The Make a Wish Foundation. Next up is a ride for Breast Cancer Research, taking place on October the 22nd.

Many of the Reaper Lords are friends in real life, and often meet up with one another. I'm told about one member who hooked another up with a job in a different state. They also talk about how the club came together in aid of one member who went through a period of intense personal tragedy. These are people from all walks of life, living all around the world. Some of them are real bikers, others just gamers, but they see each other as family.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby DerGolgo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:33 am

I'm with Toonce(s). I can't quite see the benefit of making the UTMC into a gamey thing. If such benefit could be demonstrated, I wouldn't mind.

So long as introducing the UTMC to the game is in keeping with the UTMC ethos.
Which, so long as I've been here, has always been "we're not 1%ers".

The game may require that biker gangs in game be labeled 1%.
But the out-of-game presence in particular is something that any googling 1%er or utter outsider would not instantly see and understand.
The association with the 1% community that was created outside of the game is how I found out about it, and the association with the 1%ers is most of what irks me.
In second place is that something that I'm part of was exported like this, and to this extend, without so much as a by-your-leave.
In third place, I find the "balloon tires" PSA I had made for this here place, and I find it in a 1% context. Yes, game 1%, but still 1%.

I don't own the UTMC brand. Nobody does. Which is also why such an export, without first consulting the rest of the community, isn't on.
I do own the "www.utmc-forum.org" domain, and am legally responsible for what goes on here. Quite besides any legal trouble that might stem from association with the 1% community, anyone with a finger to click his mouse with can find out who I am, what my real name is, where I live down to the street address. Within about 30 seconds. Because having a domain name involves registering, specifically so that any illegal shit that happens anywhere can be followed up upon by ICANN and the other organizations that run the internet.
So when I see something that, if anyone, I would be legally on the hook for being associated with the 1% community. Let alone something a 1%er might track back to my own apartment door.
I don't appreciate that. I particularly don't because I wasn't told, let alone asked.

The garage that, when I could still drive, would do work on my car and also did the only oil-change for my bike I had the opportunity to require before the crash is only about 200 ft from where I sit as I type this.
In riding season, on a Thursday or Friday, there's a good chance of seeing the street in front of the garage packed with custom bikes in some state of disassembly/being repaired. And the owners wandering about, in "Gremium MC" t-shirts, or even full-on colors.
That is a serious 1% club, and other 1% clubs have a reputation in Germany, also. I can do without getting on their radar, or on the radar of someone who is after them, be it another MC or the law.
Yes, that was all just in a game.
Someone browsing Instagram, or InstaSafari or any of the other websites that just re-publish Instagram for ad-revenue, or someone googling for motorcycle magazines, might not instantly recognize that.
I understand that a number of the 1% groups in GTA are, in fact, run and played by actual 1%ers, who extend their 1% activities into the game. Someone like that finds out there isn't just a UTMC group in game, but a real UTMC in the real world. Would they assume that "of course, the 1% stuff on their instagram photos, it applies only in game".
I hardly think so.

I recall hearing somewhat concerning stories about one MC or another grabbing some members, back in the olden days over a decade ago, to discuss "territory claims".
I can do without such noise.

If having an MC in game requires the 1% label. Then maybe that game isn't for the disorganization. For individual members, I couldn't care less. But the disorganization, not so much.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby MATPOC » Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:51 am

this GTA big bad biker thing reminds me of the lawyer/doctor weekend gangs going 2 states over to terrorize some sleepy towns, except without terror or danger involved.

also what DG said, to an instagram user "UTMC" and "1%" in the same post suggest that UTMC is 1%...
Perhaps experienced gamer would know the rules, but I bet those who know are a minority, so most of us at a glance will see utmc=1%
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby xtian » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:08 am

I'm a Facebook prostitute, I use it as free PR, it gets attention to my professional activities, and brings me customers and money, I hate it as much as anyone else, it also got me chance to bound with long lost friends, as the internet does. In GTAV, I usually hire prostitutes and use them as any other 12 year old gamer (as in; set them on fire) I know that it is a game, it is not reality. I sort of considered the UTMC an internet thing until it got real and allowed me to bound with some members and other not so much. I never stood up to defend this place as I feel like an outsider and do not allow myself to have any authority on this place, including the possibility of seeing it drift to something that I do not acknowledge if that is it's own anarcho-democraty step. I feel that the original project of the UTMC included a tongue in cheek chaos project refering to 1984, fight club and various philosophers that I am too drunk to remember. It included dealing with the limits, get out of the safe zone. i think the GTA UTMC reference were part of a post modern virtual reality show and should be taken as such. nothing serious. a wrap skin in a race mod game; at the same time, I understand that DG, as the main legal representative of this place could freak out and would not want to take responsebilities for all us loud kids. still, I thought the legal action response was out of place and we should try to find a common ground. maybe alter the name of the UTMC in the GTA licence ? but certainly not blameHH for including this place in his universe, would it be real or virtual. I value this place more than most real places. also I do not have a corrector on this tablet.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby DerGolgo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:11 am

Aggroton (I can never keep board names and FB names straight, Harrisburg Hooligans is Aggro, isn't he?) has announced he'll take the stuff down from Instagram and that magazine website, and once that is gone, his primary involvement in the matter is closed, as far as I'm concerned. Everybody makes a mistake every once in a while.

The online world today is about PiHundred%³ different from what it was when Dan started this madness, so a conversation about possibly extending this online community onto other playgrounds should be had. Brother Pattio had the insight to work that out while I, for one, and many other I assume, were still processing a weird end to daylight savings time.
So while I do think we should use the opportunity and what Aggro tried to do here as an example on which we can study what the potential pitfalls of such an extension can be.
We should not hold one mistake against another dismember when he has already seen what went wrong and is working on setting it right.

As to potential pitfalls in extending the disorganization to other displaygrounds (see what I did there? :P), I have thus far taken the following lessons from it:

- whoever wants to try and do it should first announce it around here and request input.
- whoever wants to try it should make sure how and where they're doing it is fitting with the disorganization's unoriginal disethos (okay, okay, that was the last one)
- whoever wants to try it should, before using UTMC artwork elsewhere, check with the creator of that artwork. Someone may not want to see what they made outside of here, or if they do, not in a specific context.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Sisyphus » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:14 am

Me, personally, I don't really care one way or the other where the artwork or "UTMC" appear but the mere implication, the implied threat, of what 1% means IRL and made accessible in GTA or any other online phenom to ordinary persons...to me, I think that misrepresents the disorganization. Like cultural appropriation, almost.

Were someone to see a patch IRL that plays GTA and think that person is some sort of 1%er, it's kind of insulting. UTMC at a certain level for any of us is part of our identity. I think that's what most of the negative reaction comes from. But the source of all this has to be considered. He IS part of us, he knows what he's doing. The esoteric discussion of the virtual worlds aspect of it all is lost on me, I admit that. I see online games as just that, games. I play WOT and it's not as involved as GTA, the violence is token, and the rules are simple. There's no "world" to it, so maybe that's why I can't understand the appeal of having UTMC "out there" in some alternate universe.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby DerGolgo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:21 am

xtian wrote: I never stood up to defend this place as I feel like an outsider and do not allow myself to have any authority on this place, including the possibility of seeing it drift to something that I do not acknowledge if that is it's own anarcho-democraty step.

Fuck you, you don't get to be an outsider. You've been here longer than me, that train has left the station. :P :wink:

xtian wrote:... still, I thought the legal action response was out of place and we should try to find a common ground. maybe alter the name of the UTMC in the GTA licence ? but certainly not blameHH for including this place in his universe, would it be real or virtual. I value this place more than most real places. also I do not have a corrector on this tablet.


At the time I threatened Instagram with legal shit, I was under the impression some asshole (not the Kawasaki variety) had just ripped us off and was shoving us into the 1% mold without having any connection to us.
Also, as someone who is employed by a big, soulless, serve-sector corporation, I know that getting the attention of big, soulless, service-sector corporations usually requires big, soulless lawyers, or threat thereof.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:41 am

I have a personal guideline in life that I try to follow: I try to be 'for' things rather than 'against' things.

With that said, I can also say that when I first found my way to the UTMC (which was, at the time, a web-page for the '667, Neighbors of the Beast' group in Denver), I was hungry for motorcycle companionship that was 'against' the norm of Harley-culture worship common to the United States. Any motorcycle enthusiast in the USA will know what I'm talking about. A popular motorcycle press dedicated to comprehensively covering the world of feet-forward V-twin riding flag waving Easy Rider inspired culture, or..... other. It was immensely frustrating and alienating to not 'fit in' with that. When I found a group of young, ratty-UJM-riding coffee swilling Akira-inspired riders who had a website I experienced a classic internet success story- finding the 'tribe' that wasn't available to me in my immediate physical world in the limitless possibilities of online community.

My distaste for organized crime, and for the concept of '1%' motorcycle clubs is a Big Deal to me. I won't set it aside lightly. I will, however, take notice and interest in the possibilities that a game offers to experience the real companionship of real people in a virtual world.

I'm in agreement with others here who feel that identifying the UTMC as a '1% motorcycle club' in any context is not something to be taken lightly. I'm also against murdering people and taking their money, but that's how games work. I don't even like killing animals in Minecraft but I do it.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby guitargeek » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:02 pm

I don't have a problem with a UTMC presence in whatever gaming universe, so long as it's accurately represented.

The legalistic response was entirely appropriate! It looked like somebody had stolen a bunch of UTMC art and content, then twisted it into some kind of 1%er bullshit.

Seems to me that Aggro/Harrisburg should have at least said something about it, because nobody but Pattio knew that it was one of our own. All this drama could have easily been avoided.

I like Aggrooligans, he's a good guy, and I hold no ill will against him. I'll buy him a beer next time I see him.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby xtian » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:22 pm

(also i do not have the quote fonction) thanks for the fuck you but I consider that allowing me any opinion on what this place should do or not do would be stealing from Beemer dan and black joe. i'm not so much a fan of having authority in the real life. still, GTA is a fake world were you earn points for being a bastard, your character does not improve from going to kids birthday party, you improve from stealth killing, mass murdering and various crimes. GTA v is not politically correct. I like to think that this place goes beyond the general politically correctness bullshit but still threat everybody with respect (the only MC internet space without a "babe" section). these are messed up times where we have to chose between fascism and a world were a 6 year old can walk in the streets at night. I don't want neither of those, because I can make the difference between post modern satire, and reality (also DG, I don't blame your initial reaction) but in the end, remember that it's just a game.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby DerGolgo » Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:45 pm

xtian wrote:(also i do not have the quote fonction) thanks for the fuck you but I consider that allowing me any opinion on what this place should do or not do would be stealing from Beemer dan and black joe.

Joe entirely divested himself of this place when he handed me the reigns. Seriously. Search for his posts. There are four. His first one from when he set up this place in 2004, after the old old forum had died, and three from the last few days when we were setting it up in its new home. All else, thousands of posts. Gone. He deleted them.
Dan started this place, but everyone who has contributed made it what it is. To my understanding, Dan trusts that we can take care of ourselves these days, and that includes long standing members having opinions.

xtian wrote:... chose between fascism and a world were a 6 year old can walk in the streets at night. I don't want neither of those, because I can make the difference between post modern satire, and reality


I'm not sure I get what you mean there.
Perhaps a world where a 6 year old cannot walk in the streets at night?
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Jaeger » Sun Oct 29, 2017 1:44 pm

DerGolgo wrote:Dan started this place, but everyone who has contributed made it what it is. To my understanding, Dan trusts that we can take care of ourselves these days, and that includes long standing members having opinions.


Again, I'll chime in here as the person who has -- to the best my understanding -- most recently seen/talked to our erstwhile leaders.

LOOK AT PIX HERE.

I will try to be clear in what I understand both my and their Interpretation of What This Place Is: We are here for the congregation of like-minded folks. "Like-minded" is defined as those who love motorbikes and the passion/terror that goest along with them. Period, full fucking stop.

I'm glad to hear that it seems it's one of our own perpetrating this thing on GTA and FB. It actually makes me happier. Aggro, at least, has been here long enough to warrant Clout. I got honestly pissed when I though it was some fuckwit boosting the name and literature.

I'm all for folks trying to bring more people in here. That said, we still need to make it crystal fucking clear that we are not 1%. My only concern with the entirety of that is the explicit connection to 1% organizations. Beyond that, I don't give a good goddamn.

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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby AZRider » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:12 pm

Well, now that we know that Aggroton is the person who created the GTA UTMC I am a lot less pissed off.

What I want relative to GTA, knowing that I may not get it, is for Aggroton to create a new name that won’t link directly to the UTMC, and keep on having fun. I hope that he meets people online who he can bring here. It would also be cool if other Ootmiks discoered that they enjoy GTA and joined Aggroton’s “gang” to share that with him.

Regarding the future of this forum, I want it to continue in its autonomous format. I appreciate DG’s tireless efforts to keep this place from crashing, and I am reassured that there are islands of goodness in this crazy world every time I come back. I don’t trust fb or any other online manufactured-and-Commodified platform to host us.

I’m certainly guilty of being sucked into the FB vortex and only visiting here occasionally, but I continue to want an online life outside of the vortex. Hi, my name is Adam and I am an FB addict.
I even accept BlackJoe’s perspective that what is here now isn’t what was when he started. I wasn’t there, but I believe those original disMembers did an amazing job of creating a community online that reflected the community they had had in Denver. Surely not identical in detail, but I know it still holds the same values and attracts the same quality of people as when GuitarGeek first brought me here. My circle of friends would be smaller and poorer without the people I have met here.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby MATPOC » Sun Oct 29, 2017 3:42 pm

Something that AZ said, "my circle of friends would be smaller" is true for me as well. Let's keep the drama to a minimum, been working long before I got here, hope it can carry on
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby problemaddict » Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:05 pm

FWIW, Pattio wasn't the only one who knew about Aggro's gaming/recuritment operation. He told me about it several weeks ago. I'm pretty sure a few others were aware as well. Its just that none of us had the visceral "WTF?" reaction that blew up on FB today. He told me about it, I asked him about GTA (I don't play), I read his articles and his "zine". I thought it was fun and funny. I, like aggro, didn't think anyone would care, therefore I didn't bring it up on here or FB. His aims were to kill time, have some laughs, and do some recruiting. If i"m not mistaken, at least one of the recent posts in the Intro forum is from one of Aggro's GTA recruits who made the jump here.

Also, I think we need to change the group's name. It has the word TERRORIST in it. I don't want people getting the wrong idea about that. I live in a country where actual terrorists operate and I don't want one of them to see one of the patches I"m wearing and make the wrong assumptions. Maybe we need another NOTICE at the top of the frontpage explaining that we are not associated with people who commit acts of terror. :Jeez:
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby DerGolgo » Mon Oct 30, 2017 1:04 am

problemaddict wrote:Also, I think we need to change the group's name. It has the word TERRORIST in it. I don't want people getting the wrong idea about that. I live in a country where actual terrorists operate and I don't want one of them to see one of the patches I"m wearing and make the wrong assumptions. Maybe we need another NOTICE at the top of the frontpage explaining that we are not associated with people who commit acts of terror. :Jeez:


It had the word terrorist in it when everyone joined up. Except for those who pretty much founded it along with Dan maybe. Everyone else came in and saw the name and joined.
I'm not aware of anyone here having been detained on suspicion of terrorism. I am aware that at least one dismember was contacted by actual 1%ers about clearing up claims for territory.

Pretty much everyone would also read some of Dan's stuff when they came in, including the stuff about this being not a "1%" club. A few hung around specifically because of that.

If you feel that "notice" was ever so offensive to you.
Please, do let me know how I should have figured out it was Aggro trying to recruit. After he had told a select few, and none of you had bothered to maybe let the rest of us know.
I'm not so much angry at Aggro, he has announced he will fix what he broke.

I'm angry at all the angels and saints flapping their wings about mine and a few others' reactions.
So angry I just wrote a rant that I deleted.

Get your fucking heads out of your asses, if you please.
I'm legally responsible for this place, and my name and real-life address are registered with the domain-name people. And only a few mouseclicks away for anyone to find out.
A few words like "it's not 1%, mkay" in the NotTheFrontPage disclaimer won't be the first thing that someone looking for trouble would find.
1%ers play videogames, too, and I was informed they extend their gang shit into GTA, also. A 1%er seeing the same name there, and the same artwork, won't say to himself "Obviously, they aren't 1%, that's only in-game!".
When I took over running this place, I took over the legal responsibility for ensuring that no criminal shit is done here, and I put my real fucking name and real fucking address out there. I don't have the luxury of hiding behind an online nickname and not having to fear anything ever coming back to me in real life. I volunteered to do that, because I cared, and still care, about this place and the people here.
I did not volunteer to get involved in any 1% bullshit.
Everything is always obviously so harmless and only a joke or whatever, and anyone even taking it seriously is so obviously some kind of a snowflake. Until some shit happens.
When some real-life shit happens with this place, it doesn't happen directly to anyone who can sit and feel comfortable behind an online username. It happens to the guy who's real identity and street address have to be registered with the domain-name people, where anyone with a hoof to click a mouse with can find 'em.

I also have seen what a big, soulless, service sector corporation looks like from the inside.
I did not issue legal threats against Aggrotron, nor against Harrisburg Hooligans, nor against Brandon.
I threatened fucking Instagram and some Swedish dudes, so as to get their attention and get shit done.

Anyone can step in after the fact and declare themselves the greatest saint, and that it should have all been so obvious, and even just objecting to see the UTMC name along some 1% bullshit is a horrible overreaction.
How about maybe telling the other ootmiks when someone you know tries and uses the name of a group that belongs to all its members in some context it had never appeared before, and with a 1% tag that had always been expressively ruled out.
How about sucking up that someone, somewhere, bollocksed up, see it gets cleared up, and talk about it rationally, instead of pointing fingers and making like someone pooped on your birthday cake. If you must play the blame-game, how about you blame whoever didn't think the UTMC should be told that the UTMC would be marketed as 1% anyplace.
I won't fucking apologize for covering my ass, nor for trying to get shit done when it appeared a total stranger had ripped off my friends and myself.
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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Shhted » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:18 am

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Re: Online Motorcycle groups : Virtual Worlds- discussion th

Postby Pattio » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:31 am

DG please take down your not-the-front-page thing now.
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