Scouting anyone?

[Rench]

So, I've got this problem.

I was a career Boy Scout. Got thrown out for trying to join too young, stayed with the program until I was eventually a full-time employee in my early 20's. While the press is bad and the national board are, well, PR nightmares, I stand (largely) by the program. On the personal level, the kids are awesome, the leaders mean well, and the program works. Seriously the best thing I've ever been involved with, with positive ramifications that will last throughout my life.

Of course, there's always things you wish could be better, and I fought the good fight from the inside when it came up.

Now, as an adult, I have 2 daughters. Which is awesome, cause there's a counterpart out there I'd never had any involvement with, the Girl Scouts!! I was pumped about Renchlette's first meeting, and was even talking to one of the mom's about being a co-leader. And we've been with them for most of the school year, and...

It sucks.

I mean, as something to do, it's fun, it's social, she's done 1 community-service-type outting this year, and sold a shit-load of cookies. But the meetings are like extended craft sessions. And not like cool crafts, like coloring. They get little activity patches just for showing up. the "uniform" is a blue vest, and the patches just get sewn on wherever you want. Think "flare" not "I earned this." And the meeting schedule is completely random. A few tuesdays a month, then nothing for six weeks, then 2 in a row, just weird. It seems to me to be utterly lacking in the structure that made Cub Scouts so great to me.

She's having fun, which is awesome, but I don't think she's really getting much out of it, other than fun, I'm all for fun, but she can mess around with her friends in the neighborhood after school (which she does), she doesn't need a random night of the week to go color pictures and have a snack time. But I'm kind of (read: deeply) a traditionalist. This is the counterpart of the central element of my first 24 years on this planet. It MUST be good damnit!

Enter http://bpsa-us.org/.

They're new-ish as near as I can tell (vs the 100+ year history of the BSA and GSUSA).

They're co-ed, they believe in camping, and they kinda toss the bloated infrastructure of the other two aside. The first requirements for a badge in the 5-8 year old program (requirements, for a badge, this already blows the doors off the Daisies) are to know and print your full name, know your phone number and address, your parents full names, and how to call 911. Wait, "welcome to the BPSA, here's how to help yourself if you get lost and/or help other people who need it."

So I'm kinda torn. I guess I could throw myself into the Girl Scouts, which I just don't understand and fundamentally still don't get after a year of hanging around, or possibly pull my kid out of a known organization to try something new which might be a total bust.

Opinions?

-Rench

[Bigshankhank]

If this newer program offers what you want her to learn, and she is interested in it, too, then pull the plug on the Scouts. Don't get caught up in the dogma of an older organization just because its been there so long. My sister has three little girls and her oldest started in the GSUSA and left for much the same reason, it seems to exist only to sell cookies. She did not bother enlisting the other two.

[beck]

That makes me wonder about the state of the boyscouts these days too. I was also a long time scout, and hate to see fun organizations that helped form my morals/personality to what they are now, become choked by modern take-no-chances ultra politically-correct bullshit philosophy.

I will echo what Hank said, as this is mostly how i live my life (motorcycles, clothing, whatever)....

Judge the product, not the name behind the product.

[GeekGrl]

Girl Scouts, and Boy Scouts, and any other organization, are what you put into it ... and for youth groups, it is especially what the adult leaders put into it. I was in GS from 1st grade until 7th. Grades 1-6 were awesome, I had leaders who were total mom tom-boys and we went camping in tents for multiple nights several times each summer (imagine 10 six-year-old little girls piled in a huge army-issued tent by ourselves), built fires (had to gather the wood, chop it, build it up, light it, and tend it -- no fire, no dinner), cooked over campfires, learned about nature, learned to whittle sticks, went on long nature hikes, went to museums, made useful things like "sit-upons" (which I still have and use 35 years later). But in 7th grade I was forced to join a new troop (because of changing schools), with different leaders, and the one and only "camping" trip was at a GS-owned"campground" that consisted of a huge building with dormrooms, a full-sized commercial kitchen, running water, and showers. We learned about how to apply makeup. I did not go back.

If you don't like what Renchlette's troop is doing, then muscle in as a co-leader and start teaching them useful things, take them camping, teach them about combustion engines, give then something more to remember than useless coloring books.

[beck]

Two words. ... pinewood derby.

One year I made an indy car that didn't work too well but looked awesome. Another year I made an El Camino that won seventh in state. Probably because it was motorcycle colored.

[calamari kid]

Are there other GS dens (or flocks or whatever they call them in GS) in your area? I know they switched me from one den to another when I started Cub Scouts, 'cause the first was pretty lame. Might be worth going to one of the regional meetups to see if another den might be a better fit. The BPSA looks like a cool organization too.

[Bigshankhank]

Two words. ... pinewood derby.

One year I made an indy car that didn't work too well but looked awesome. Another year I made an El Camino that won seventh in state. Probably because it was motorcycle colored.

Shit, I forgot about pinewood derby, I used to love that. Built the same car four years in a row, never could get past the first round. Then my granddad showed me how to drill holes in the bottom and melt lead with a torch to add a little weight. I still didn't win, cause then the car was too heavy, but I can still remember the smell of burning lead and the fact that my granddad couldn't find his way out of the basement after that.
Good times.

That interesting GeekGrlll, I'm glad to hear that there are still some troops (or were at least) that take the girls out to rough it.

[GeekGrl]

That interesting GeekGrlll, I'm glad to hear that there are still some troops (or were at least) that take the girls out to rough it.

It goes to show that one's experience in Scouting (or any youth organization) is dependent on the leaders. I remember even then, when we went to multi-troop events, that some (though not all) troops/parents/leaders were SHOCKED that we went camping! in the woods! slept in tents! cooked on FIRES! used pocket KNIVES! with a gaggle of little girls (I started with that troop as a 6 yo).

@ rench: the BPSA sounds like what my experience was, and if you have an existing group in your area, I'd just switch to that. There is nothing to be gained out of sticking with the Girl Scouts, unless Renchlette prefers their activities to being out in the woods. There is no BPSA group in Seattle as yet, but maybe by the time Podling is old enough, there will be.

[Zim]

My cousin was a Boy Scout, attaining Eagle rank. I would make fun of him and the Scouts, of his rock collection, of his uniform, knot-tying capabilities, badges... what a nerd! He's now an engineer with Ford Motor Company because he used his skills and schooling. I'm a fat househusband because apparently I impregnate well.

My daughter is was a Daisy Scout with Girl Scouts. It's exactly as you say, Rench. Haphazard meetings which consisted of "craft" time, and then running around. Some mothers used the opportunity to dump off their spoiled brats for the others to babysit/parent. I never went, but my wife would come home exasperated.

Oh, and patches...



Apple Picking - the group went apple picking. Whee. Patch!
Pizza Party - the group met once and had pizza. It was like a party. Patch!
Great Job - I don't know, she remembered to breathe during a meeting? Patch!
Food Drive - she brought a couple of cans to the meeting. Probably years-old unwanted cans buried in the back of the cupboard, like lima beans and sauerkraut. Patch!
Caroling - ok, this one might have some meaning, as her group went to a nursing home and sang to the residents at Christmas. (the kids were scared out of their minds with what they saw) Patch!
World Thinking Day - She used her powers of thinking to open the door to the meeting room. Patch!
Success For Tomorrow - A tie-in with World Thinking Day, she was able to reverse her steps and opened the door to leave the meeting, ensuring future success with building ingress/egress. Patch!

It was a clique, and not much more. My daughter showed no real interest in it. The leader lost interest, and the meetings abruptly stopped. But I think she needs something. I felt comfortable with Girl Scouts because they seemed inclusive. I don't dig the policies of the BSA, and my son is at an age where scouting could benefit him. The BPSA seems interesting.

So I'm kinda torn. I guess I could throw myself into the Girl Scouts, which I just don't understand and fundamentally still don't get after a year of hanging around, or possibly pull my kid out of a known organization to try something new which might be a total bust.

You bought a Ural. You don't seem averse to risk.



As a side note, I've twice been burned by Boy Scouts: First time when I ordered popcorn and forked over $15 to the young gentleman in the uniform. Trustworthy my ass... never got the popcorn. I've been wary subsequent times, and told the next door-to-door BS, "C.O.D.!". Never saw that popcorn either, but at least I didn't fund his lies!

[DerGolgo]

As someone whom the German officially-Baden-Powell-ish scouting organization kicked out, all I can suggest is: if you think it'll be for your girls what you want for your girls, go with it.

[GeekGrl]

My daughter is was a Daisy Scout with Girl Scouts. It's exactly as you say, Rench. Haphazard meetings which consisted of "craft" time, and then running around. Some mothers used the opportunity to dump off their spoiled brats for the others to babysit/parent. I never went, but my wife would come home exasperated.

Oh, and patches...



Apple Picking - the group went apple picking. Whee. Patch!
Pizza Party - the group met once and had pizza. It was like a party. Patch!
Great Job - I don't know, she remembered to breathe during a meeting? Patch!
Food Drive - she brought a couple of cans to the meeting. Probably years-old unwanted cans buried in the back of the cupboard, like lima beans and sauerkraut. Patch!
Caroling - ok, this one might have some meaning, as her group went to a nursing home and sang to the residents at Christmas. (the kids were scared out of their minds with what they saw) Patch!
World Thinking Day - She used her powers of thinking to open the door to the meeting room. Patch!
Success For Tomorrow - A tie-in with World Thinking Day, she was able to reverse her steps and opened the door to leave the meeting, ensuring future success with building ingress/egress. Patch!

It was a clique, and not much more. My daughter showed no real interest in it. The leader lost interest, and the meetings abruptly stopped. But I think she needs something. I felt comfortable with Girl Scouts because they seemed inclusive. I don't dig the policies of the BSA, and my son is at an age where scouting could benefit him. The BPSA seems interesting.
!

A fucking PIZZA PARTY PATCH? A PIZZA PARTY PATCH!?

This seems an appropriate time to just put "OMFG" ...

But that was NOT my experience with Scouting, but clearly its what it has become. We're doomed.

[Rench]

The thing is, this lack of direction seems to be institutional, not just cultural. There is no written requirements or checklist or to do list until much higher in the organization, and the precedent now is "thanks for showing up!"

-Rench

[wheezy e]

I tried scouts as a kid & was quickly bored for about the same reasons you describe in this girlscout troop, we never seemed to do anything remotely challenging.
My brother-in-law told my nieces they could each pick some type of class or organized group activity that he'd do with them regularly - the seven year old picked karate (!) and the five year old picked a pottery class. I'm pretty sure both are set up as child+parent sort of deals. Seems like there's more options than when we were kids, maybe look around, see what else is available and what she might be into.

[Pintgudge]

When I was "of an age" I really wanted to go camping and whittle with a knife and build a fire and all that cool stuff.

Pestered and pestered my mom, and finally got to join the cub scouts. Yay!

I asked about the pinewood derby,

I was told,"You haven't been here long enough."

I said, so now what?

They gave me a paper plate and some Elmer's glue and some colored macaroni and said "Make a pretty picture!"

I didn't have the words at that time, but if I had, I would have said. "FUCK THIS SHIT!"

I never returned.

[12ci]

I got far more out of Scouting as a parent than I did as Scout.

That said,

The Baden-Powell Scouts' Association shares the heritage of the youth Scouting Movement, however they believe in a traditional way of Scouting which closely follows the program set out by Lt. General Robert Baden-Powell in his book: Scouting for Boys.

The Baden-Powell Scouts' Association was formed in the United Kingdom in 1970 when it was felt that The Scout Association was abandoning the traditions and intentions set out by Baden-Powell in 1908. The Baden-Powell Scouts retain the belief that the essence of the movement should be based on outdoor activities related to the skills of explorers, backwoodsmen and frontiersmen.

1970 isn't that new. maybe its just new to the USA, or to your neighbourhood. (tho i never heard of it before reading this topic.)

as calimari says, visit other units. when my son transitioned from Webelos to Boy Scouts, we visited several troops before he found one he was comfortable in (and, it was solely his choice). it worked out OK for him (Eagle Scout, OA Vigil Honour, etc)

if this is really institutional, its probably age related. i think this "Daisy" thing is new; my sister was a "Brownie" and later a Girl Scout. Since the Daisies don't meet on a regular basis, you'll have some free weeks to explore other organisations. there are a number of them (my wife did 4H growing up, but maybe thats too rural for Chicago).
see if there is a group or programme where you both are happy.

[Mk3]

Wow dude, one day and you put it to the board? I really started a shitstorm in your brain this time.

[media]http://youtu.be/1F6Ctq6ckpk?t=6s[/media]

I got on this one because similarly and often simultaneously had incredibly positive experiences in boy scouts. And I was psyched that its neigh time for my son to join up, until I read that I, not he, would have to sign a pledge of a deity based religion. I don't have or want one of those, he is welcome to do as he chooses. I don't want mk4's enrollment into a values based organization to be predicated on a lie, and ironically the values I learned from scouting are now standing between my boy and BSA. Then I started to really think of all the outstanding scouts I met who as adults have like me turned from religion or (not particularly like me, but no matter) come out as homosexual and all of us are no longer welcome to the BSA. Not just frowned upon, but actively purged. So being pissed off and disappointed, I looked for alternatives. From the leader side BPSA looks like an unyielding pain in the ass, which is good frankly, because laziness and failure to adapt are key elements of the degradation of the reigning scouting monoliths.

So, I'll be signing mk4 up for the "lone scout" element of BPSA. It will be a giant pain in my ass, but thats ok. It will bring some structure to the skills I'm teaching him anyway, and if we land somewhere with an established group, he can jump in. Let the knot tying begin.

[motorpsycho67]

All I got was a skateboard and a gruff "Be home for dinner..."

[guitargeek]

You got a skateboard? AND DINNER??

Lucky bastard!

[motorpsycho67]

You got a skateboard? AND DINNER??

Lucky bastard!

I know..... pretty lucky eh?

[tucko]

My son and I checked out some local troops around here a few years ago when he was about 9 or 10. we don't care for the politics crap, but I wanted my son to have the same sort of fucked up "Bad News Bears" scouting adventures I had. Looking around at the parents, I decided there was no way in hell I wanted to spend any time at all with them. So....we put him in a troop that's a little further from home, where the Assistant scout master is a friend of mine, and we know his kids, etc. It's a perfect fit for me and the kid. The adults have a very "hands off" approach, and the patrols are responsible for their own meals, etc. So far, we've canoed down the Colorado for about 18 miles, and just recently finished 3 days in the desert near Calico. There were several vintage military jeeps involved, night time 4 wheeling, LOTS of gunfire, burning Xmas trees, potato cannons, and a WHOLE lot of food...So yes, I would say it's very important to find the right troop to belong to.

[Bo_9]

We are currently in a small "starting over" troop that started at his school. There are few parents that actually want to put in the time to help things happen, others that are apparently barely there. Due to schedules I haven't made it to a camp yet, but my wife had fun at them. Apparently she and the boy out shot all the dads on the bb range.
There was massive erosion of the ranks with all the bad press last year, so his group only has four boys, but the incoming group was huge. If the numbers shrink again next year we'll likely move to a larger troop.

[Bo_9]

Made the first BS camp last weekend through severe thunderstorms, with a new tent. Luckily had no leaks, unlike some of the less lucky dad/boys. It was run like a "resident" camp in that meals were in the mess hall. The boys got up at 6am to swim, had breakfast (mess hall), made some rope, learned to play "Ultimate Frisbee", swam again, lunch, made something for mom to hang on the wall, BB range, archery, RAIN, movie in mess hall to wait out torrential downpour, Dinner, Sorted out whose tent was full of water, and slept. Second day skipped the early swim, breakfast, put name on a board with rope, scampered home.
He had a good time even though it was pretty much a repeat of what they did last year, except no knot tying, map reading, or real outdoor skills at all. Shockingly I didn't see any of the boys (apart from mine) actively helping pitch or break their own camp. After about the tenth time of being told not to run in camp one of the older boys fell hard on a rock which drove the point home to the rest finally. We had a few dads that were literally phoning it in. hey would call from their tent to find out where their kid was while the rest of us were helping them do their stuff.
All in all not a bad time, but we will likely try to go to a different camp next year that has more to do. We have a free week at the big camp in SW Missouri for winning some award at the local scout show. It has zip lines, climbing/rappelling wall, mountain bike/boarding, horses, sailing, trap, and rifle range, and several other fun things to do. But non of them are for any rank under WebeloII so it's largely pointless for anyone with younger boys.
My biggest gripe with the entire organization is the chartering of packs by churches and how that kind of forces them to build their policy in stupid ways.

[Pintgudge]

I heard of this GREAT camp called RAGNAROC!

Talk about teaching them about real adult stuff!

Or, maybe not.

[wyckedsin]

There is nothing in the By-Laws that says you can not make your own troop...

or that you have to stick to the schedule of the troop your girls are part of. My wife was a scout leader for her daughter. Why? Becuase she hated the mamby pamby way the other troops did their thing. She grew up with two older brothers in scouts and her dad as the scout master. So, right next to her GSA guide...was her brother's BSA guide. and she taught from both. Don't like the new editions, find an OLDER edition. Teach from that.

[Zim]

Any updates on BPSA?

My son showed interest in the Cub Scouts. It's something that I think would benefit him, but I'm not liking BSA policies/issues. I'm somewhere between casually and seriously considering BPSA, which I could include his twin sister in.

There's no one in the area, so I'd have to go it Lone.

[Aggroton]

Late to the convo...but, when I was a Boy Scout, from 8-18, the baddest chicks around were the Adventure Scouts. Which was an extension of the BSA that allowed the ever feared vagina.

[Mk3]

Ironic timing Aggroton, as I'm (finally) forming a BPSA post. shooting for an October rollout actually. I think the baddest chicks around are likely to be rench's daughters.

[Bo_9]

Update - My son has move into Boy Scouts from Cubs, and from a small questionably organized pack to a well established and organized troop. They manage to do at least one camp a month and the boys actually run the meetings, set camp meal menus, shop for the supplies etc. We aren't quite "in the groove" on getting rank related stuff done yet, but it is slowly ramping up. He is having a much better time since they actually do the things he expected from the glorified daycare that is Cubs. He has is mind set on getting his Eagle, and this troop seems to churn them out with three of the older boys earning theirs this year.

[guitargeek]

Sorta off topic, but how about that Jamboree speech?

The best speech in the world, ever. So classy, the best words. Wait'll you get a load of this speech, you won't believe it.

[Aggroton]

Mk3. Kuddos to you my man. Good luck!

I can't begin to tell you how much scouting did for me as a young man and continues to do for me in my life.