Lazy fucks...

[Rench]

http://www.utmc-forum.org/pub/viewtopic ... er#p271409

With some wry sneering, I'll give you, this is why I'll likely never be a selected juror...

But FUCK. YOU. To the jury. 6 hours? You unimaginably lazy fucks. 6 days. 6 weeks. 6 fucking years I would've badgered every other man and woman in that room til they were willing to sit me next to him, but I would not have left that room without an execution. In only 6 hours they determined that all 6 bullets in the 6 year old girl were because of an apparently near forgiveable chemical imbalance. Fuck every one of them. The ones who let him live, and the ones who let the others let him live.

-Rench

(I know, I'm slipping back into using this place as an emotion dump with this, but I've been screaming at the TV long enough. the dog is getting weirded out...)

[Pattio]

Shall we vent? By all means. Lets execute this guy. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He took steps to conceal his actions, he took steps to ensure his own safety while he killed others, and he took steps to kill innocent people who tried to investigate his apartment after he did his deed. By all means, lets execute him.

Just so long as we preserve with a fierce integrity the mechanisms that made it possible for him to buy a lightweight semi-automatic rifle designed for war, a huge magazine designed to minimize any need to reload, and so much mail-order ammunition that his UPS man had to use a hand-truck to get the boxes to his door, because those things are exactly what a meme of the Founding Fathers would have wanted every person to have the ability to do without infringement, up until, and not one second before, they were used the way this person used them.

By all means, lets execute this sick man. But on pain of violent insurrection, let us not address in any way, in any way, in any way whatsoever, the viability of the means with which he obtained his weapons.

[calamari kid]

Oooh ranting time? Does that mean I can bitch about the fucked up state of our mental health system? Or as we implement it here, the prison system? Because there once was a time in the good old USA when folks with dangerous mental conditions had hospitals where they could be treated with therapy and medications, and if they were determined to be unable to maintain their meds or the meds/therapy didn't sufficiently address the threat to themselves or others, they could be committed. The Regan administration thought this was a waste of public funds though, so now we just wait until someone is killed or assaulted then throw sick people in prison. Seems to be working well.

[Rench]

Vitriol! Anger! Let it flow!!!

Was the hand truck in jest Pattio? cause its a funny image, but just another facepalm of this whole mess if its true.

And while I agree about the mental healthcare in general, I don't think it applies to this shithead. He was upper middle class, near affluent in his upbringing and resources available to him. If anything, its a cultural shift about acknowledging and working with mental illness de-stygmatization or some such.

And while keeping it from happening again is the noblest goal and outcome, the closest we can come to closing the past involves him in a body bag in my humble opinion.

-Rench

[guitargeek]

Killin's too good for him!

[goose]

Shall we vent? By all means. Lets execute this guy. He knew what he was doing was wrong. He took steps to conceal his actions, he took steps to ensure his own safety while he killed others, and he took steps to kill innocent people who tried to investigate his apartment after he did his deed. By all means, lets execute him.

Just so long as we preserve with a fierce integrity the mechanisms that made it possible for him to buy a lightweight semi-automatic rifle designed for war, a huge magazine designed to minimize any need to reload, and so much mail-order ammunition that his UPS man had to use a hand-truck to get the boxes to his door, because those things are exactly what a meme of the Founding Fathers would have wanted every person to have the ability to do without infringement, up until, and not one second before, they were used the way this person used them.

By all means, lets execute this sick man. But on pain of violent insurrection, let us not address in any way, in any way, in any way whatsoever, the viability of the means with which he obtained his weapons.

Indeed, because fertilizer and trucks are so beyond his reach or intellectual accumen to acquire.

[DerGolgo]

Indeed, because fertilizer and trucks are so beyond his reach or intellectual accumen to acquire.

You lot have to figure out your national gun habit yourself.
But: Anders Behring Breivik killed 77 people. He had the fertilizer, and the truck. But still found it necessary to take a gun to a summer camp.
There appears to be a qualitative difference. A gun gives the murderer point-and-click demonstration of dominance. A bomb is anonymous.

Evil fucks like this one make me question my own opposition to the death penalty. Truly, it is not justice that someone who made the decision to do what he did, and did it, should go on living. If anyone deserves to be removed from the species, it's this one.
But what he deserves, or doesn't, no longer matters. After what he did, nothing he deserves is in the least relevant, anymore. Enough sick shits out there crave the martyr's death. Dunno about this one, but I don't think he deserves an easy out like that. Whether there is any adequate way to punish him, I don't know.
One can only hope that, eventually, he will realize just what evil fuckery he did. That he sees himself for what he is and despairs.
He is in his 20s. He is, and will probably remain, in solitary. With no contact with other inmates, he may have another 50, 60 years before him. By himself.
One can only hope he will spend the majority of those decades despairing, knowing full well what a POS he is, with no one to hold his hand and not even some way for him to take his own life. That every waking moment of his will be a living hell entirely of his own making.
It's not justice. But despairing over misdeeds and one's own wickedness is not an uncommon reason for people to take their own life. Making him envy the dead, without having anyone to lay blame on or suchlike, no one to focus his hatred on (like a torturer would be) seems to me to be as good as one can get to punish this evil fuck.

[Pattio]

It's my personal opinion that we (the USA) should create a prison research center for our spree killers. Considering that most of them die in the commission of their crimes, either by suicide or in a hail of police fire, it seems to me that we should make careful study of the survivors. There must be some thread that we can tug on to unravel why this happens so much here, so I propose putting these guys under one roof with a team of scientists to pick at them.

[Jaeger]

You lot have to figure out your national gun habit yourself.
... A gun gives the murderer point-and-click demonstration of dominance. A bomb is anonymous....

Evil fucks like this one make me question my own opposition to the death penalty. Truly, it is not justice that someone who made the decision to do what he did, and did it, should go on living. If anyone deserves to be removed from the species, it's this one. .. Whether there is any adequate way to punish him, I don't know.

Yes and yes.

First, as a generally pro-gun guy myself, I do find America's issues with guns as deeply troubling. I do not know how to reconcile the 2nd Amendment with the reality that we have some incredible fuckwits who keep doing horrible things. I agree that removing the guns won't "solve" the problem entirely -- removing the guns is a lost cause at this point anyway since there are so many, and ANFO is awfully easy to do -- but between the harm that wackjobs do with easily accessible firearms and the mentality it instills in the cops (thereby getting more folks shot), we as a country need to figure out a better way.

Additionally, I'm generally opposed to the death penalty but from all I've read it sounds like there's no "mistake" in this one. Fucker did it, pure and simple, no ambiguity. He knew full fucking well what he was doing was abhorrent and he did it anyway.

Frankly, at this point the only thing I can consider is a cost-benefit analysis to see what's cheaper, offing the shit sucker or letting him rot in prison for the rest of his miserable little life. You'd think frying the fucker would be cheaper but from what I've read in the past it's tremendously expensive to do once you factor in all the mandatory appeals, bureaucracy, etc.

There's no justice, though. Can't kill or maim the asshole enough times. Perhaps several decades of sitting in a concrete box can extract more retribution than just putting a bullet in the guy's head. I don't know, and I likely never will.

--Jaeger

[red]

I agree with Jaeger. I'm pro-gun but something has to be done to keep things like this and the Sandy Hook shooting from happening again. Removing guns won't fix it and adding more won't either. There has to be some sort of reasonable change (firearms, mental health care, record keeping, whatever) that will help. But a majority of people on both sides can't fathom that the other has any valid points. It always defaults into an all or nothing argument.

I also agree with Pattio, keep these bastards alive and study them, as painfully as possible.

[guitargeek]

Study them as *thoroughly* as possible. Torture is still to be abhorred.

[red]

Study them as *thoroughly* as possible. Torture is still to be abhorred.

I think there might need to be exceptions.

[Beemer Dan]

Over seven billion people on Earth right now, that's more than twice what it was fifty years ago. Seven billion people. That leaves a lot of possibility for trouble. If only .0000001% of those have the potential to do something crazy we're pretty screwed.

I don't really think there is any way to create a societal structure that will prevent the most determined mass-murder inclined nut job from doing harm. How much harm they can do, and how they do it can probably be decreased in a lot of circumstances; but stop them entirely? I don't see it as likely. If by chance we can create very complex computer simulations based on each individual that can record and aggregate everything from what they eat to what they read to how often they pee to what their heart rate is etc,etc.., maybe we could better predict the future. Kind of like and MMOG but with all of the data coming from the real world. Even then, the most dedicated nutters just might be able to do horrible stuff anyway.

I do think that if we could stop turning these crazy murderers into household names it would give less incentive for them to do it. Removing their identity from public knowledge would possibly stop a lot of them from doing it, but that gets into some weird Orwellian territory.

[DerGolgo]

I do think that if we could stop turning these crazy murderers into household names it would give less incentive for them to do it. Removing their identity from public knowledge would possibly stop a lot of them from doing it, but that gets into some weird Orwellian territory.

True.
I recall, after the Winnenden shootings, the BBC had a psychologist piped into the studio by phone, the presenters asked the man why this kind of thing happens.
"Because of you." was the expert's opinion.
Narcissist fucks crave attention to begin with. Shits like this, usually, tend to be determined to experience ultimate dominance over others. They want everybody to be busy with them, to be the center of attention, all part of dominating everybody. That the murderers get talked about quite so much is, to an evil fuck, an actual incentive.
The media coverage isn't likely to create a spree-killer out of whole cloth. But someone already on the edge, who already decided to do something like this, may well be pushed over the edge. Spree killings apparently tend to occur in clusters. The media attention on one such event inspires the next guy to make his evil dreams come true.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant, by and large, and the victims of such events certainly deserve to be noted by society. But in such situations, the murderers identity should remain not just murky, but entirely obscured in the media. Even then, reports of an unidentified murderer might still inspire some evil arse. This is a tricky situation, this.

[red]

It's my personal opinion that we (the USA) should create a prison research center for our spree killers. Considering that most of them die in the commission of their crimes, either by suicide or in a hail of police fire, it seems to me that we should make careful study of the survivors. There must be some thread that we can tug on to unravel why this happens so much here, so I propose putting these guys under one roof with a team of scientists to pick at them.

While at DOOM, Skkot and I were discussing the idea of putting these fuckers (and anyone wishing to do the same) on an island and let them shoot it out. Using elements from "Running Man" and "Battle Royale" Each "player" has a dedicated drone that follows them around and they wear an explosive tracking collar. Sell access to the video stream and use that money for something good. Keep a running leader board and give them the fame they want but without the innocent lives. Once you sign up to "play" you play until you're worm food.

[AZRider]

I remain opposed to the Death penalty on moral grounds: I think it is immoral to let someone who does something this heinous off the hook with a quick death. Sit in a windowless cement box for a few decades, shitstain. For the same reason, I want to see police trained and equipped to apprehend mass-shooters alive. Sit in a windowless cement box for a few decades, shitstain. And put it all over the news coverage so that if someone is thinking about copycatting, they will know the cops are going to take them alive and the jury will say, Sit in a windowless cement box for a few decades, shitstain.
As for the 2nd amendment problems, I don't think we can prevent these situations 100%, but our best bet is to turn our attention to the much more common gun tragedy problems and the vast pool of readily available weapons that make those tragedies common. I am now a fan of Jim Wright's proposal: Take the National Rifle Association's guidelines for responsible gun ownership and make them the law. With strict penalties for failure to be a responsible gun owner. Always be sure the weapon is not loaded and never take anyone else's word for it.
Accidental shooting with a gun you thought wasn't loaded? Prosecuted as if it was an intentional shooting, plus 10 years loss of the right to own guns, lifetime ban if the person was killed.
Always secure your weapons. Toddler got ahold of your pistol and shot sibling? Prosecuted as if you intentionally shot the sibling, plus 10 years or life ban. Guns stolen from your house? Prove that the thieves defeated an approved gun safe, or be charged as an accessory to any crimes committed with your guns, plus 10year ban for failure to secure. Same if a member of your family accesses your weapons and uses them in a crime.
And so on with the rest of the NRA's own dos and donts as the basis of the laws.

[guitargeek]

Hear, hear.

[Rench]

AZ, dead nuts on. (Except the death penalty in my humble opinion, something between visceral satisfaction, a natural order, and an old testament angry God, but I digress ) I whole-heartedly concur about culpability for stupidly kept firearms. So many of the mass shootings I've looked into even have stolen or at least improperly accessed firearms, not to mention the utterly senseless accidental shootings.

-Rench

[guitargeek]

visceral satisfaction, a natural order, and an old testament angry God

None of which are good enough reasons.

Make that motherfucker suffer.

[Rench]

I'm largely in agreement. The death penalty is applied unevenly at best. But in a straight forward, here's the murderer, here's the weapon, here's the bodies, here's the witnesses, there's a quick, simple, and forgive me for saying, but also cost effective solution.

Also, not trying to bait, but if your true motivation for life imprisonment is to make him suffer, you kind of cede the moral high ground, by implying death is a humane option, and opting for something else.

Back to AZ, interestingly, here on IL, I have 30 days to report a misplaced or stolen firearm. Otherwise, I'm on the hook for...well honestly I don't know what, as I'm generally more interested in following the law than avoiding the punishment. But there are ramifications for misplacing your firearm and not speaking up.

-Rench

[guitargeek]

I ain't ceding shit.

[Rench]

Happy turkey day to you too!

-Rench