JACKBOOTED THUGS

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Mk3 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:19 pm

DerGolgo wrote: On the other hand, sexual offenders are often easily forgiven by the general public, so he might have stuck around. Banishment in this context means what I think it means, doesn't it?


He abused his authority, that and the sex offense are grounds for neutering in my book. I'm glad he got shellacked. Further let's consider the extraordinary likelihood that this singularly identified offense is not the only time he's done this. He's probably pulled this shit numerous times, possibly some of that came out in trial (or behind closed doors), and they are keeping him away from the people he's wronged. Maybe protect the town from further scrutiny too (though fuck that department), and on the fringes maybe keep him from getting killed by angry husbands.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby DerGolgo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:41 am

Considering how quick he was to admit to blackmailing her, he must either have been a total moron trying this for the first time. Which all things in this matter seem to indicate against, indeed.
Or he had done this so often, he felt he knew how the rest of the conversation was going, and he just decided to get to the point before wasting any more time. Accepting to have this on his record forever more does suggest he feared other stuff would come out in court.

One can but hope that, wherever he moves in the future, it'll be a place where, for the rest of his life, he'll have to personally inform every single one of his neighbors of what he did. And that, with that stain on his record, the only sort of job he'll be able to get will force him to live in the kind of neighborhood where people are disinclined to like police officers to begin with, and will have particular appreciation of a dirtbag cop abusing his office as he did. Make his whole life real damn unpleasant.
"Okay, so you're reporting an assault, you got beat up by your neighbor, let me just... hang on... oh, you used to be one of us? Well, brother, we'll sure... hang on... you fucking did WHAT? Dirtbags like you is why we have to wear body cams and attend all those fucking seminar! You know what, fuck you. Your neighbor was evidently acting in self-defense. Fuck off, or I'll arrest you, and I'll let anyone in the tank know that you used to be a dirty cop!"
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Bigshankhank » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:03 am

Speaking of jackbooted thugs, the fmr mayor of New York City Rudy G posted a 911 appreciation ad featuring literally that very thing. A grizzled cop in riot gear facing off against protesters remembering all of the things that inspired him to swear fealty to the badge, going backwards in time all the way to watching the news on 09-11-01 as a small boy. Then at the end he brings his consciousness back to the present, and I shit you not, whips out his baton in preparation for some skull cracking.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Jaeger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:51 am

This makes me slightly nauseous.

Cato Institute wrote:Eleventh Circuit Grants Immunity to Officer Who Shot Child Lying on the Ground
The Eleventh Circuit’s decision in Corbitt v. Vickers, handed down last week, constitutes one of the most grotesque and indefensible applications of the qualified immunity I’ve ever seen. The case involves a claim of excessive force against Michael Vickers, a deputy sheriff in Coffee County, Georgia, who shot a ten-year-old child lying on the ground, while repeatedly attempting to shoot a pet dog that wasn’t posing any threat. Without even deciding the constitutional question, a majority of the Eleventh Circuit panel granted qualified immunity to Vickers, simply because there was no case on point with this particular set of facts.

The key facts as alleged in the complaint are as follows: Vickers and other officers were pursuing a criminal suspect, Christopher Barnett, when Barnett wandered into the backyard of Amy Corbitt (who had no relation to Barnett). At the time, one adult and six minor children were in the yard, and the officers demanded they all get on the ground. Everyone immediately complied, and the police took Barnett into custody.

But then, the family’s pet dog Bruce walked into the scene. Without provocation or any immediate threat, Vickers fired his weapon at Bruce. His first shot missed, and Bruce retreated under the home. About ten seconds later, Bruce reappeared and approached his owners, and Vickers fired again – missing once more, but this time striking Corbitt’s ten-year-old child, who was at the time still lying on the ground only 18 inches away. The bullet tore through the back of the child’s knee, causing serious injuries. The child suffered severe pain and mental trauma and has to receive ongoing care from an orthopedic surgeon.

...



FULL STORY HERE: https://www.cato.org/blog/eleventh-circ ... ying-shoot

A 10-year-old kid. Lying on the ground in compliance with cop's orders. On his own property. No consequences for the fuckwit cop shooting at what was apparently a harmless dog.

We don't only have a problem with the cops here, we have problems with the fucking courts. (And I don't see that getting better any time soon.)

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby DerGolgo » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm

What the fuck?
At what point are cops just gonna be declared to be above the law?

I read news these days about that woman who walked into somebody else's house and just short the person to death, in that person's home, to which she had not been invited.

10 years inside for a cop probably isn't going to be pleasant, and one might make the argument that it will be equivalent to a non-cop serving a much longer sentence.
But how fucked up it that I read that, about a person who fucking broke into her neighbor's house and shot him to death in his home. And I'm a little surprised any time was handed down at all?

She will eligible for parole in five years, and I can't see her failing that. That doesn't quite sound like justice to me.

I wonder how this might have gone if he had had a gun in his home, and had short the armed intruder. Presumably, he'd be on death row for killing a cop. Why would she have entered his home if she hadn't had a good, police reason.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Jaeger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:57 pm

DerGolgo wrote:What the fuck?
At what point are cops just gonna be declared to be above the law?


Have you been paying any attention to the shit going on at the very tippy top of the American judicial system? There's a whole fuckin' legion of people out there who are apparently above the law.

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby DerGolgo » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:49 am

Jaeger wrote:
Have you been paying any attention to the shit going on at the very tippy top of the American judicial system? There's a whole fuckin' legion of people out there who are apparently above the law.

--Jaeger


I have been paying attention.
And I wasn't talking about anyone thinking themselves to be above the law, nor about anyone being treated like they're above the law.

Let me rephrase:
At what point are cops et al just gonna be openly and explicitly declared and legislated to be above the law?
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Jaeger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:14 am

DerGolgo wrote:Let me rephrase:
At what point are cops et al just gonna be openly and explicitly declared and legislated to be above the law?


It's a good question. I dunno if you caught it over there, but last year a Texas cop was going back to her apartment at the end of her shift, walked into wrong apartment, freaked out, and "accidentally" killed a guy sitting in his own home watching TV and eating ice cream.

She was convicted of murder, but she got a very light sentence of 10 years (with possibility of parole in 5).

Had that been any other normal person they'd be facing life in prison.

There's something terribly wrong with the way we're training cops in America. They are apparently way too willing to ventilate everybody they meet. :shock:

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Bigshankhank » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:02 am

Jaeger wrote:
DerGolgo wrote:Let me rephrase:
At what point are cops et al just gonna be openly and explicitly declared and legislated to be above the law?


It's a good question. I dunno if you caught it over there, but last year a Texas cop was going back to her apartment at the end of her shift, walked into wrong apartment, freaked out, and "accidentally" killed a guy sitting in his own home watching TV and eating ice cream.

She was convicted of murder, but she got a very light sentence of 10 years (with possibility of parole in 5).

Had that been any other normal person they'd be facing life in prison.

There's something terribly wrong with the way we're training cops in America. They are apparently way too willing to ventilate everybody they meet. :shock:

--Jaeger


Look back to recruiting videos from social media back in the immediate post 9-11 years and you'll see why. They were actively seeking people with the impression that they would be given carte blanche to play out their Judge Dredd fantasies with dogs and body armor and such. Slowly I think departments are starting to realize that they ended up with latent sociopaths and they have essentially lost an entire generation of officers, both those who actually are living out their authoritarian fantasies and those who won't even sign up to serve alongside them. Not to mention the loss of public trust.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Jaeger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:10 am

Bigshankhank wrote:Look back to recruiting videos from social media back in the immediate post 9-11 years and you'll see why...
... Not to mention the loss of public trust.


I'm afraid you're right. It fits with my general observation that Bin Laden was successful in driving American insane. This is one of the consequences. The so-called War on Crime in the 80s-90s didn't help either.

When I was in school I worked as a student aid for the university PD and got to meet folks who're planning on going into policing. Far too many of them were just itching to bust, desperate to get the badge and the gun and power.

I hope you're right and police departments are realizing that they've gone off the deep end, and in so doing made their problems worse (i.e., alienated civilians). They wouldn't have to be quite so fucking paranoid all the time if they didn't go around treating the rest of the population as the enemy.

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby DerGolgo » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:44 am

Jaeger wrote:It's a good question. I dunno if you caught it over there, but last year a Texas cop was going back to her apartment at the end of her shift, walked into wrong apartment, freaked out, and "accidentally" killed a guy sitting in his own home watching TV and eating ice cream.

She was convicted of murder, but she got a very light sentence of 10 years (with possibility of parole in 5).

Had that been any other normal person they'd be facing life in prison.

There's something terribly wrong with the way we're training cops in America. They are apparently way too willing to ventilate everybody they meet. :shock:

--Jaeger


Yeah, I did catch that. That's a main point as to why I asked the question.
I mean, what would have happened if he had had a gun, and had defended himself, under the "Castle Doctrine" that her defense had tried to use.
I'm sure he'd be on death row.

And all that hugging. Everybody was hugging her so much, the collected press photos do make it look like it wasn't a criminal trial. But a crying child being disciplined.
I mean, it's okay that the dead man's family have forgiven her. That's their business.
But the rule of law can't be allowed to be subordinate to sentimentality. Nor can it be allowed to grant the enforcers of the law special privilege. If anything, if a cop breaks the law, he or she should be looking at a harsher sentence. Other people don't take an oath to uphold the law, while a cop does.
And I can't imagine any parole board won't look at how horrible prison must be for a cop, and not even question granting parole for one second.
She walked into another person's home, uninvited, and killed him. Ten fucking years, out in five? That's fucking bullshit.

Bigshankhank wrote:
Look back to recruiting videos from social media back in the immediate post 9-11 years and you'll see why. They were actively seeking people with the impression that they would be given carte blanche to play out their Judge Dredd fantasies with dogs and body armor and such. Slowly I think departments are starting to realize that they ended up with latent sociopaths and they have essentially lost an entire generation of officers, both those who actually are living out their authoritarian fantasies and those who won't even sign up to serve alongside them. Not to mention the loss of public trust.


On top of that. From what I understand, among the Pentagon's greatest customers for surplus equipment are police departments across the USA. Which are also building up so many SWAT teams, they use them to deliver subpoenas, iirc.
Even in a high crime area, why the fuck do the cops need MRAPs? Why the fuck were there fucking self-propelled SAM batteries at the DAPPLE protests?! Were they expected the protesters to bring attack helicopters?!
When your only tool is a hammer.
While I recall reading that in firearms training, the pop-up targets are often designed to resemble stereotypical black, urban "thugs". When you train someone to kill specific targets, that's what they are going to do.
I can't imagine that even those cops who joined before 911, who aren't, or at least weren't, fucking sociopaths, would not be driven into more violent states of mind.

I recall reading about a US police chief who, by changing tactics and training, reduced fatal shootings by police officers in his city from some two figure number to zero. I can't find that article right now, but a few appear to be making efforts and progress:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html

and
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... shootings/
I find this quote telling:
Wesley Lowery on washingtonpost.com wrote:Several of the chiefs noted that they anticipate, or have already seen, significant resistance from their officers and local police unions to an attempt to change policies or to hold officers more accountable. Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn, who said that officers need to be disciplined more consistently for violating policing policy, recalled the anger he provoked with his decision to fire the police officer who shot and killed Dontre Hamilton, a mentally ill man who was asleep on a park bench.


I remember when, where I work, someone decided to give employee-only cable and broadband plans to all his friends and family. When it came out, and it was proven that he had defrauded the company for thousands, the union didn't dare make a fuss. More the opposite.
And this guy didn't just steal money. He killed a sleeping man. To me, that sounds like murder.

Thing about treating someone like an enemy all the time. They will become your enemy, eventually.
I have the impression some decision makers in US police are working out that, when protecting the public and ensuring members of that public can rely on living in a lawful society, by enforcing the law, is their job description.
Yet the public views them as enemies, violent thugs, and will more likely protect a criminal than expose someone to getting shot dead for sleeping on a park bench, or suchlike.
Then, no matter how many arrests they make, they have failed their job, haven't they.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby Jaeger » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:06 am

A buddy of mine who has experience working as a police dispatcher and knows cops very well has an interesting idea vis-a-vis police shooting: As a cop, if you shoot someone you can no longer be a cop. Give them some incentive to not shoot and to think a little harder before they get all trigger happy.

Do you really fear for your life, Mr. Policeman? Then by all means, fire away, but understand that if you kill someone -- even if it's justified -- you'll receive a severance package of some kind then you're no longer a cop. Maybe they put you in administration? I dunno, it's his idea, but the point is that you don't get to have the gun any more. Given that most cops go through their careers without killing anyone this shouldn't be too much of an imposition... right?

It'a a goofy idea but it has at least some merit. There needs to be some concrete disincentive.

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby motorpsycho67 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:26 pm

Jaeger wrote:It's a goofy idea


That's grossly understating it..... and I HATE cops.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Postby DerGolgo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:58 am

motorpsycho67 wrote:
Jaeger wrote:It's a goofy idea


That's grossly understating it..... and I HATE cops.


I, too, have no sympathy for the fuckers. There's exactly one cop I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and he used to be on this here board.

Loosing your job, your career, your prospects, for defending your life. When that job specifically entails entering life-threatening situations so others don't have to. That rubs up on my sense of fairness, and I loathe having to consider such a measure unfair to those bastards.
And if you could get it implemented, you'd be looking at situations where, if a cop does get killed, everyone and their grandmother is gonna blame that measure for why the dead cop didn't shoot first to save his life. In the end, it might backfire, with the measure being discontinued, and cops feeling "off the leash", feeling justified in shooting to kill even more than they do now.

Thinking about it, I wonder if an appropriate measure might be two guns. No, I have not thought this through, but hear me out.

Suppose any cop had to carry two guns. One loaded with deadly bullets - the other with rubber bullets (and, ideally, rubber bullets further optimized to be non-lethal and non-maiming than existing types).

Suggestion 1: the holster for the lethal gun is secured in some manner that requires the non-lethal gun being drawn first. So that, by the time the cop had lethal force available if needed, he'd already have non-lethal force in hand. Odds are, in a high-adrenaline situation, the cop would try to resolve the situation with the non-lethal bird in his hand.

Suggestion 2: don't try to elaborately engineer something that wouldn't be idiot-proof, nor malice-proof, to begin with. Few things are.
Just give them a non-lethal option that is easier to use than the lethal option. Would that stop all police killings? No.
But if your only tool is a hammer. If lethal force is all a cop has to credibly threaten a person more than a few feet away (think range of TASER or pepper-spray), or in a position to add sufficient distance in the blink of an eye, than lethal force is almost certainly what that cop is gonna end up resorting to.
Give cops a non-lethal option that, unlike a TASER, allows multiple shots in quick succession, and unlike pepper spray, isn't liable to incapacitate them like it should the suspect, like when the wind is blowing the wrong way. And, obviously, fucking train them to preferentially use the less-than-lethal option. And I think they will.

There should be something so the cops won't immediately go for the lethal weapon. Like making the less-than-gun so that they won't worry about just dropping it when they do have to go lethal. Simple solution: do like the Mounties did in recent memory, have the gun on a lanyard. So that they don't have to spend time on re-holstering, and know in advance they won't have to.
There are a number of other measures that one might add.
Engineer it so it can only fire rubber bullets, so that lethal bullets won't fit (which would also avoid "mistakes" by "overworked" cops). Make the gun so that a child isn't likely to discharge it while playing around (confounding unfamiliar shooters with the funky grip-cock was, I recall reading, greatly appreciate by police departments that adopted the HK P7, as many cops who get shot are shot with their own service-weapon). Make sure people know they can get a reward for handing in a recovered less-than-gun, put a keyfinder-thingy on it, paint it in UV-reactive paint. A bunch of obvious measures that remind them, any time they draw it, that they will be able to recover it if lost. Also make it so that they know, if they do have to go lethal, and they do have to drop it, and can justify either, even if just barely, they won't even get a reprimand, let alone actual trouble.

There already exists at least one shotgun with two separate magazine tubes (the "Neostead 2000") that, afaik, would let the use choose from which to chamber a shell. I can imagine other mechanisms for allowing the use of two separate magazine tubes with rapid switching between the two. Make it so that the action will only load shorter shells from one tube, perhaps of a length not commercially available to civilians, and issue the less-than-lethal stuff, beanbags or whatever, in that shorter size. Boom, no way to accidentally load lethal in the less-than magazine. Make some design alterations so that, when the cop grabs the gun from the clamp in the car, it will always and only ever be set to the less-than-lethal magazine.
Yeah, the cop could just switch to lethal.
But he might not. He might actually be more likely not to.

To round it off, and to discourage the use of lethal force when unnecessary. And to discourage a gaggle of cops pouring forty rounds into a single suspect. Make them justify each round of lethal ammo. Make them sign for every single bullet or shotgun shell. Perhaps issue only micro-stamped ammo, so they can't get cute and bring their own, and so that they know they can't get cute like that. Make the paperwork they must file for every lethal round they discharge such a bureaucratic nightmare, they associate them with hours and hours of overtime, just filling out paperwork. Make sure that the paperwork is actually reviewed by somebody, and that they know it will be. Make every cop who tries to use deadly force for less than legit reasons but doesn't actually harm anybody sit through days and days of mind-numbing seminars, and make it so they must fly a desk for a while, with no overtime, night-duty, whatever bonuses they might expect to take home otherwise. Make them dread having to use lethal force. Like any human being who isn't a fucking violent sociopath should.
Since a dead suspect should require a lot of paperwork already, making them dread the paperwork for using lethal bullets shouldn't keep anyone from protecting their own life, or the life of somebody else.

At the same time, don't hand out the less-than-lethal ammo in ammo-boxes or anything. Get is packaged in bags, like potato chips. Bags labeled not with the number of rounds therein, but like "Beanbags, 12 ga., 2 lbs.". Or "Rubber bullets, 9x19 mm, 1 quart". Yes, using obsolete imperial measures. Because a) people understand those better, I believe, and b) it would underline how those are not military. The US military has been metric for donkey's years, afaik, and I have read a number of plausible sounding expert opinions that it's the militarization of the police, with SWAT teams in MRAPs outnumbering regular patrol cops and all that shite, that is making lethal police violence more and more likely. If your only tool is a hammer.

All of which relies on some mechanism to identify whether resorting to lethal force had been justified or not. Body cams, for a start, that won't so easily "malfunction unexpectedly", or won't work because of a full memory card, or whatever. Whether or not the cop had a good reason to resort to lethal force should be the yardstick, and it shouldn't be left to a group of people who couldn't even figure out how to avoid jury duty.

What is probably easiest, quickest, and most effective to implement would be training, though.
Proper training for policework. I recall reading of one police chief in California (iirc) who reduced the number of lethal shootings by his force from a low double-digit number per year to zero. Can't find that article right now, but I did find this one:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html

I think cops may be slowly figuring out that, when the people they ostensibly serve and protect must expect to get shot dead for no justifiable reason, or to die in custody, these people will see cops as the enemy. And even those who won't see them like that aren't likely to grass on anyone they don't want to see dead. While I'd bet that, in some cities of the US, police are already the unwitting enforcers for gang bosses, and are fighting gang-wars. At least since the original Freakonomics, nobody should be under any illusion that gangsters are somehow stupid. Getting anyone killed they can't or won't kill themselves, when there is a perfectly murderous police department available, shouldn't be beyond many gangsters.
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