JACKBOOTED THUGS

[SECO]

Sorry to have upset you dergolgo. I think you missed my point on Dorn, my anger was because so many people standing around not rendering aid, seemingly like they didn't know what to do. Things that might come naturally to me.

I don't have a problem with protests, but riots and looting? Supposed Antifascists fighting fascism with fascism? Anticolonialists fighting colonialism with colonialism? (CHAZ/CHOP) There's a lot of hypocrisy being thrown around. I'm antiNazi, antifascist, antiracist, and I'm antiMarxist. When Antifa acts like fascists, why am I not allowed to call them out on it? I reject the idea that if I disagree with Antifa, I'm for fascism. I am profreedom, as what was set out in the United States Constitution, because I'm an American. Not a flag waving American. Just a low cash flow rural American, that can relate to Hispanics more than my own lineage.

Was I angered by Dorn's death? Probably a bit more than the others, I'll be honest. Was I enraged by all the people standing around watching Dorn die? Most definitely! Was I enraged by the other cops standing by complacently in Floyd's case? Most definitely, especially when it was the rookie that was asking if they should let him up and he was ignored!

I could have made excuses about adrenaline dumps in the Floyd case, but I won't, because I believe he did not deserve to die. I believe the officers standing around should be brought to justice, but not by mob rule. Brooks didn't deserve to die either, guess you might have missed that? The fate of the officers, is in the hands of the judicial system, due process over mob (in)justice (depending on how things work out and individual positions). In Brooks case, the officer should have not used his firearm.

I can see how you may have construed that my character assessment of Floyd, Brooks and Dorn may be "poisoning the well", and am willing to redact it. Evidently, you ended reading the post there. Maybe there is a language/context disconnect? I'm not against the protests, but am against the riots and the little white kids in black stormtrooper gear, tearing stuff up and gang beating people for trying to protect their property.

I can't be expected to enumerate every incident that happens in the world. I believe that each case needs to be gone over with a fine tooth comb. Not hit and miss, or hit and forget like so much of the media do.

I was enraged at the Castillo murder.

I was enraged at the Jacquez murder (which happened about the same time as Ferguson), where justice was ultimately served and under reported.

I was enraged at the LaVoy Finicum murder.

I could go on and on and on, please tell me when I can be allowed to calm down? Evidently never, because Silence is violence, right? I don't want this rage. I don't want apathy either.

With the riots, violence begets violence, hate begets hate, the hole gets deeper. Protests are covered in our constitution, riots are not. Protests don't indiscriminately destroy other's property, riots do.

I like to ponder the evidence first, because I cannot rely solely on what's said in the media, either side, so I have to look at all sides to define what the truth is. Any time a police contact ends in death, justice and due process are not served. When mobs rule, it creates more of the thing that you're trying to stop. There is a clear line between peaceful protests and riots. Unfortunately when things break down, there's a lot of people that get caught in it, that don't want any part of it. Everyone loses, unless destruction is the goal, then the tyrants, oligarchs, totalitarians, authoritarians, dictators, feudalists win.

[guitargeek]

LaVoy Finicum committed suicide by cop.

[DerGolgo]

Evidently, you ended reading the post there.

No. That was when my initial response, that I had had to write in a word processor, had reached page 7 (12pt., single spaced). Just responding up to that point. BBCode and links took up a lot of space in there, so call it six pages.
What I posted was the most concise set of highlights from what I had written up to that point, and what I addressed there had disgusted me enough, I was done. I had read the rest of your post, and had not found anything redeeming that first part.

When Antifa acts like fascists, why am I not allowed to call them out on it?

Examples, please.
Vandalism is not the defining action of fascists. Or anything fascists have any kind of monopoly on.
Actually, fascists reserve vandalism for things (businesses, homes, etc.) owned by whatever ethnic/cultural/political group they have declared the bogeyman. Besides those, fascist ideology is kinda pro-business, pro-property, anti-vandalism, anti-protest, etc.

Fascists don't have a monopoly on rioting, either. They actually really, really prefer the organized action that lets them display the aesthetic that is an important part of fascist recruiting. Which is why, in Charlottesville three years ago, they would rather risk being seen with tiki-torches than not having something that might look impressive in pictures/video.
They would engage in streetfights, historically, but not so much rioting.

Antifa isn't an organization, and dressing up in black isn't a membership card.
Antifa is a broad political movement, and in some contexts, an ideology.
If condemning all of "Antifa" for actions of individuals is warranted, even or actually specifically when these individuals themselves may identify as Antifa.
Then what about a group that's a formal organization, with oaths, regulations, hierarchy, and uniforms, who's members can't just "join", but have to work to get in. What about the actions of individuals within that group, and what one may think of the rest of that group.

Brooks didn't deserve to die either, guess you might have missed that?

I question how a man being murdered over a TV, as you had put it, brought out your viking rage.
But a man shot in the back over a DUI did not.
In the 2nd fucking paragraph, the one right after where I tagged you.

So I don't fucking know what you were on about.
Oh, wait, was it when I pointed out that your well-poisoning included a lie about George Floyd (that he resisted arrest), a point for which I linked to a source?
No?
Then what the fuck are you on about here, besides trying to gaslight me?

I can see how you may have construed that my character assessment of Floyd, Brooks and Dorn may be "poisoning the well"

I don't see any character assessment for Mr. Dorn in your post, not anything remotely like the long list of irrelevant or plain wrong details about George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks that you provided.
And I still can't see how the character of either man is at all relevant.
BLM and the Burkenstock Bolsheviks you so seem to detest are protesting the extrajudicial killing of black people for being black people.

Or tell me. On this list. Which one of them was murdered because of their own character flaws? Or had character flaws that, in retrospect, made the actions of their respective killer morally or ethically justifiable?

High profile extrajudicial killings since 2014, an incomplete list

Show

Freddie Gray
Sam Dubose
Philando Castile
Terence Crutcher
Alton Sterling
Jamar Clark
Jeremy McDole
William Chapman II
Walter Scott
Eric Harris
Tamir Rice
Akai Gurley
Michael Brown
Eric Garner

Did any one of them die for his character flaws?
Tamir Rice was fucking 12 years old. What about his character could we possibly asses that might remotely justify his death?

Or are you suggesting that there is reasonable doubt to consider, that Floyd or Brooks, with such a character, etc., may have done something to provoke getting killed?
When we don't have to piece together the events from secondary, incidental details.
But instead, we can just fucking look at what fucking happened on the COPIOUS video evidence?

The present unrest is not about people being killed for character flaws or previous deeds.
It's about black people having to fear for their life when they are forced to interact with a white cop. Which many, perhaps most, cannot avoid by making better choices, because white people, cops or those who call them, choose for them.
The present unrest is about society acting as if black lives don't matter, or don't matter nearly as much as white lives.
In my previous post, I illustrated the difference with a link. IF you follow that, you will see the treatment a white man gets. Found with a gun in his car, after he had fled hundreds of miles from the scene where he had killed 9 people in a church.
George Floyd had been accused of a $20 crime. Rayshard Brooks had admitted to a DUI. Dylan Roof was wanted for mass murder.
Two of them didn't survive their encounter with police. One of them got Burger King.
THAT is what BLM and the Burkenstock Bolsheviks you so detest are protesting about. Police are evidently capable of detaining armed and dangerous people without injury, so long as those people are white. But black people can't even protect themselves by cooperating and complying.
With this ongoing murderous injustice, you feel we should do a "character assessment" of the victims?

The fate of the officers, is in the hands of the judicial system, due process

and HELLO, you put your finger right on it. Why there are protests, and where the rage we see is coming from.
THE COPS GET DUE PROCESS. THE BLACK MEN THEY KILLED DID NOT.

There is a clear line between peaceful protests and riots.

I referenced a number of sources in my previous post. About that clear line. And it being trampled by the police.
The police demonstrated, at a number of events, that peaceful protest will not be tolerated.
Yes, innocent people get caught up, on all sides, and small business owners are probably ruined in many places.
Innocent people are getting murdered by police.
Innocent people peacefully protesting these extrajudicial killings are brutalized, physically assaulted, beaten down like protesters in fascist dictatorships.
With that, and with pictures of black protesters shielding a cop with their bodies, or physically carrying counter-protesters to safety.
I'm not seeing a violent movement.

What I'm seeing from over here is oppression of peaceful protests, rioting kicked off by violent police forces, acting in large formations in riot gear, supported with military vehicles, to stomp out opposing voices.
I'm seeing people standing up, demanding their most basic human right, the right to live. And paramilitary police forces cracking down on this peaceful action, the oppression of political opposition, kicking off the violence.
Source. Another source. More source.
It appears that, when the police respect the very basic democratic concept that grievances may be publicly expressed by peaceful assembly.
There are examples from a number of places right here.
Seen here is how a protest remains peaceful even if the cops are not joining it.
Somehow, the rioting seems to not happen automatically, was not an inherent part of the protests. As if the authorities created for and put in charge of keeping the peace can do that. Or can choose not to.

Where they are happening now/still, many riots are probably going on without further police provocation. I can't help but expect that, aside from violent scumbags who always come out, for many in and around any riots, the crackdown on peaceful protest was just the final straw. They were provoked their entire life, by a society, judicial system, and police forces, that demonstrated to them, again and again, that their lives aren't as important, aren't worth as much, as other people's.

I could go on and on and on, please tell me when I can be allowed to calm down?

When a black person in the US doesn't have to fear for their life every time they are made to interact with a cop. When a white cop killing a black person for no good reason anywhere in the US will face the same consequences as they would for killing a white person.
No one can, nor will, stop you from getting your bp down and living a life.
But if you can look at one of those murders, and you don't feel any sense of anger on behalf of the victim, you don't think "this must change"?
No one can, nor will, stop you being a bad person. No one owes you validation for your rationalizing, for not caring. For not feeling solidarity for the protesters, for not demanding change that is lifetimes overdue. That shit is on you.

[DerGolgo]

On "Outside Agitators".

I've heard that term a few times, but never made the connection until today.
"Outside Agitators" has ever been common. Here in Germany, too.
Well, over there, in that other Germany.

In East Germany, from 1988 onward, public prayer vigils against the arms race evolved into protest marches and a mass protest movement against the East German dictatorship.
The government of Erich Honecker did what his predecessor, Walter Ulbricht, had done in 1953. Then, the East German government had hiked workers' quotas, with no thought given to the workers' concerns. Like capitalists do when there are no unions (any unions in East Germany were run by the party, of course).
Ironically, for the self-described "Workers and Peasants State", there was industrial action. Which, soon enough, blossomed into outright revolt against the oppressive system.

At the time, in part to justify the decision his Soviet masters made to stamp out the revolt with military force, Ulbricht et al declared that this wasn't a revolt of the East German people, certainly not of the East German workers. After all, how could the workers revolt against their own state?
No. The unrest was entirely orchestrated by outside agitators, sent in by the West to harm the working people of the only democratic state on German territory (yes, they claimed that), etc., etc.

So in 1989, when the people (sure looked like everyone who wasn't in a uniform attended) would gather every Monday, like clockwork, or calendar, voicing more and more grievances (initially, iirc, police action against peaceful protest vigils, but soon enough escalating to all other aspects of oppression), Honnecker's government declared that this was the work of outside agitators, infiltrating the country from the West.

So. There's an uncomfortable parallel.

[DerGolgo]

So the people who arm themselves to the teeth with near-military-grade weapons (semi-auto and a big magazine was all the Brits needed in the Falklands), and publicly declare they they are ready to fight a new civil war, want to fight a new civil war, and will fight a new civil war, even if they have to start it.
Turns out they aren't all just good clean boys having good clean fun. Quelle surprise!

The FBI announced Tuesday that Steven Carrillo, the U.S. Air Force sergeant who allegedly murdered law enforcement officers in California during protests earlier this month, was associated with the right-wing Boogaloo movement, and that Carrillo chose the timing of his attacks to "take advantage of a time when this nation was mourning the killing of George Floyd."

And anyone wringing their hands, crying But Antifa!

However, last week NPR published a review of court documents of 51 individuals facing federal charges related to protests, and none is alleged to have links to the Antifa movement. Among all the cases brought by the Justice Department thus far, the only extremist group mentioned in court documents is the right-wing "Boogaloo movement."

Be honest. What are the odds that DAs or federal prosecutors would decide to avoid charging Antifa associated suspects, and instead go after as many right-wingers as they can? What are the odds that this doesn't actually represent who is doing the violence?

[DerGolgo]

WHAT
THE
ACTUAL
FUCK?!

LINK

An ICE Nurse Revealed That A Georgia Detention Center Is Performing Mass Hysterectomies
On Monday, a nurse at a private immigration detention center in Georgia came forward about a range of dangerous medical practices at a U.S. Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) facility. According to her, the center has not only ignored COVID-19 protocols, but is actively performing mass hysterectomies on detained people.
...
“I’ve had several inmates tell me that they’ve been to see the doctor and they’ve had hysterectomies and they don’t know why they went or why they’re going,” Wooten said in the report. She also noted how ICDC consistently uses one out-of-facility doctor, who is responsible for the hysterectomies in addition to accidentally removing the wrong ovary in one patient. “He’s the uterus collector.”

Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
...
d. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
...

So the fash bootlickers and racist scum are going to claim No, illegal immigrants are not a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, so this doesn't apply and whatever we do is entirely legal!

Also, note the next point in that convention.

...
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

I read this: https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2018/1009 ... -Americans
And this: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/dep ... ds-n918261
And this: https://theintercept.com/2018/07/01/sep ... migration/

What the fuck is happening?!

[Jaeger]

WHAT
THE
ACTUAL
FUCK?!
...

What the fuck is happening?!

Other than 'Murka completely losing its mind?

It's been in the news here too, but it's lost in the noise of wildfires, hurricanes, the plague, riots, the economy... never mind the fuckery around the election.

That said, while I saw something in the news about this yesterday I can't immediately find it in either the NYT or WaPo. The very fact that this story isn't the top headline is distressing because (1) it's not getting enough attention; and (2) it's indicative of how fucked up everything else is -- it's not like what's there isn't itself headline news.

Jackass knows there's precious little anybody can do about the situation until the election, and this sort've thing will almost certainly energize his base. It will, of course, further inflame folks like me/us. I expect he's hoping there's more civil unrest so he can justify dropping the hammer, sending in the goon squad, looking like the law-and-order candidate, etc... I dunno. Maybe he's just into eugenics.

There's too much shit going on. Most folks can't track all the horribleness -- I certainly can't. I hit my capacity for horror and outrage a while back. Like I suspect many of you, I walk around with low-grade nausea most of the time.

Of course, this is precisely when the most horrible shit starts happening: when we're all numb to it. When we're so overwhelmed with chaos that it's impossible to adequately digest and address each and every atrocity with the full vigor it requires.

Early voting in Virginia starts next month. I will be exercising that right as soon as it's possible for me to do so. Until then I'm just hoping that my countrymen aren't stupid enough to keep Jackass and company in DC.

--Jaeger

[xtian]

so, has Hugo Boss began to design outfits for this government yet ?

[Jaeger]

I feel compelled to post something in this thread given my absolute fucking fury over recent events.

The one that really just broke my brain was Lt. Nazario here in my own Virginia:



This makes me so goddamn angry I cannot really express it. There's precisely one polite and professional person in that video, and it's the guy getting screamed at, threatened, cap-stunned, kicked, cuffed, and generally abused... for NO FUCKING REASON. None other than the amount of melanin in his skin, or so it seems.

It's especially infuriating that the local cops only fired the most offensive cop after the video went viral. It's not that they didn't know, it's that they thought it wasn't a big deal.

The lieutenant -- who was in uniform -- behaved entirely appropriately. He was polite and professional. He was met with nothing but hostility and scorn... and threats! "You should be!" -- WTAF?

As a mild delinquent myself, I grew up with a distrust of police just on general principles. I have had cops approach me hands-on-guns, though never fully drawn.

I also worked for university police while in school as one of their glorified traffic cones. I do understand the whole "go home at the end of your shift" mentality, but what's in that video is NOT the cops "protecting" themselves. That was pure, undiluted arrogance.

Given how nervous _I_ am as a middle-aged Honky, I can't fathom being darker than a latte and living in this country. I know there's always been at least some bias against non-Honkys, but I'm deeply troubled not knowing whether:

(1) it's always been this bad; or
(2) it's getting worse.

My sense is that it's the latter -- a product of the post 9/11 militarization of the police -- but I don't really know. It could be that there are more cameras, more evidence, and more people coming forward and pushing back.

Neither option is comforting in the slightest. That the government doesn't have the data to figure it out is itself frightful.

There are obviously other incidents of late (e.g., the poor guy who was "accidentally" shot during a traffic stop) but this is the one I personally found most egregious. Listening to the cop in MN who shot Martin, her response was at least "HOLY SHIT!" and I can imagine a scenario in which she genuinely fucked up. It also didn't take nearly 10 minutes for her to kill that poor guy by choking him out.

Nevertheless, she still killed him needlessly and should suffer the consequences.

If they don't convict shitstain Chauvin in Minneapolis, not only do I think the city will burn, IT SHOULD. Maybe they all should. If I were Black in Minneapolis I'd be stocking up on kerosene and strike-anywhere matches.

Regardless, American police need to take a good long look at themselves and think about what they're doing and whether it's worth it. Sadly, I don't expect that'll happen anytime soon.

--Jaeger

[motorpsycho67]

If they don't convict shitstain Chauvin in Minneapolis, not only do I think the city will burn, IT SHOULD.

[Jaeger]

If they don't convict shitstain Chauvin in Minneapolis, not only do I think the city will burn, IT SHOULD.

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." -- MLK

...But it is a shallow fucking curve.

Regardless, yay, I guess. We're still awful but not that awful? I'm also happy to note it doesn't sound like there was much deliberation. (WTF was there to say?)

I'll still sleep a little better tonight.

--Jaeger

[DerGolgo]

I both was and wasn't surprised when I heard they convicted.

I was fully expecting that that whole "pre-existing condition" bs the defense apparently tried to pull would maybe have had an effect. Pretty well-trodden term, that, isn't it.

At the same time, I couldn't conceive that anyone could look at what that officer (I cannot even come up with a suitable derogatory!) did and couldn't see anything but murder. An act that ended the life of a helpless, defenseless person, who wasn't threatening anyone, was entirely at the mercy of that officer. Fucking begged for mercy!

Yeah, had they let him walk, that city, perhaps that whole state would have burned. And a few others. For good reason. The right to life is the most basic, most fundamental, most non-negotiable natural right. Letting him walk would have demonstrated a culture willing to deny this right to some people, so long as they look one way, and the person taking that life wears a uniform.

I hope, dearly, that the idea of accountability sinks in, and that the next jury who has to try a case such as this (there will be another, let's not kid ourselves) won't look back and decide, because Chauvin got locked up without pointless deliberation, they shouldn't lock up whoever will be in front of them.

Police officers, in particular, must be held to a higher standard. Not a lower standard. The fact that their job is dangerous cannot remain an excuse why they should get a free pass.
I've been seeing that "split second, life or death" bullshit even from police officers over here, discussing the murder of Adam Toledo (he dropped the weapon and raised his hands - that was not a threatening gesture, that was complying with what the cop had actually ordered him to do). Our police forces over here are undermined by right-wing extremists, networking (disgusting content of Whatsapp groups just keeps getting leaked), one cop who is very publicly urging good cops to come forward and not let the nazi shit slide by is getting death threats.
Besides publicly defending any cop killing someone, regardless of circumstance. They do racial profiling, they like to get a little more handsy and violent when detaining anyone who isn't pale as mashed potato. They are more likely to stalk and detain someone like that to begin with.

While they don't gun down a lot of suspects, there have been suspicious deaths over the years. Not remotely on the scale the US has - but that's hardly because our cops are inherently good people or have good intentions.
They want, nay, crave, the kind of license that cops in the US have been getting. They want to get violent against anyone they consider lesser. That much is clear from stuff that has been getting out.
Chauvin being held accountable for what he did sends an important signal, not just in the US, but to bad, inhumane, violent, racist, scumbag cops everywhere.

[motorpsycho67]

...But it is a shallow fucking curve.

--Jaeger

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatl ... le/618659/

[DerGolgo]

Just saw this. Not quite about jackbooted thugs (we have plenty of problems with that right here, even if not with as much gunfire), but illustrative of the international impact that the murder of George Floyd and the subsequent protests had.

Six athletic fields (mostly soccer fields, I suppose) that are part of the athletic facility around the Poststadion stadium in Berlin will be renamed for victims for racist violence.
One will be named for George Floyd.
That the violence in his case was racist is explicitly given as the reason for the naming.

Others who will be memorialized include: Jana Lange (murdered in the antisemitic attack on the Synagogue in Halle, Germany, in 2019), Hermann Horwitz (team-physician of the Herta BSC soccer team, deported and murdered by the nazis), and Dalia Elyakim (murdered in the attack on a Berlin christmas market in 2016). No word on whom the other two fields will commemorate.

The initiative for this came from "Berline Athletik Klub 07", a regional-league (4th tier) soccer team based at the Poststadion facility.