Trump

[DerGolgo]

Thing that pisses me off today:
The MAGA-morons will claim that the orange baby had a greater inauguration crowd than Biden. And that it will be factually (context-free) accurate.

Thing that would make my day:
If the crowd is not just larger numerically - but, by the magic of social distancing, occupies an order of magnitude more space than the red hat morons did four years ago.

Also, over four years, and I only just noticed. Red Hat. Isn't that a Linux distro? @red, I think you're our resident computerist. A lot of horrible in-jokes in the industry there?
Yes, their's is a fedora, but still, I gotta wonder. The poor people in their PR department.

[motorpsycho67]

Yes, their's is a fedora

*baseball hat

[DerGolgo]

Yes, their's is a fedora

*baseball hat

The Trumpsters, yes.
The Red Hat Linux (and other open source things) people use this one: https://yt3.ggpht.com/-rWWxL-Q2AI8/AAAA ... /photo.jpg

[Jaeger]

ABOUT GODDAMNED TIME.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national ... _p001_f001

Still, this is going to get... interesting.

--Jaeger

[Jaeger]

Hur hur, this keeps getting better. Jackass just got indicted AGAIN. This time for his antics vis-a-vis 6 Jan 2020.

I could post " 'BOUT GODDAMN TIME" again but that doesn't quite convey my sadness and worry regarding where We Collectively are going.

I'm old enough to legitimately remember a time when I had equal disdain for both parties. That time is long past. It's not that I view the Democrats as being somehow "good," but rather that the GOP -- in its consistent support of an already-convicted sex offender and soon-to-be convicted obstructionist, liar, insurrectionist, and fraud -- has become far and away the clearer danger and evil.

Anybody reading this here in 2023 is old enough to remember what happened on 6 January 2020. It's not up for debate. A few thousand people tried to storm the Capital to affect the results of an election they didn't like. They failed. That there is somehow some disagreement about that underscores the issues with denying the ugly facts of history. To Wit: Holocaust deniers and Ron DeSantis.

We can certainly argue about the issues of party politics and all that, but for all the Democrats' failings they're not fascists. That's quite clearly where Matt Goetz, MTG, Bobert, and the lot are headed. They're either wannabe Nazis or fucking morons, take your pick.

I mean, fer fuckssakes, you'd think someone with the surname of "McCarthy" would be a bit more circumspect about trying to ignite an inquisition?!

I've been hanging around this place (the UTMC) for well over a decade (nearly two) and like to think I've been fairly intellectually and ethically consistent in what I've written. I've argued against punching Nazis on the grounds that it's not always clear who's a Nazi, but... goddamn, y'all, the fuckers are practically running up flags.

--Jaeger

[DerGolgo]

I've been hanging around this place (the UTMC) for well over a decade (nearly two) and like to think I've been fairly intellectually and ethically consistent in what I've written. I've argued against punching Nazis on the grounds that it's not always clear who's a Nazi, but... goddamn, y'all, the fuckers are practically running up flags.

--Jaeger

I was under the impression that that was exactly what they're doing?

As for the shit's unending string of indictments. Jayzuz. If I may offer a presumptuous outsider's perspective:

The republicans it seems don't know if they're coming, going, or taking a shit. But they know they must stick to Trump. Seen from over here, at this point, he is the republican party.
Ever wondered how a Cult of Personality looks up close?

They must maintain their narratives. Rule #1. Never admit you're wrong.
Trump has empowered the fascist element, violently rammed the Overton window to the right. Without him, they might loose that. They know this at least instinctively. Instead of an economic crisis, a lost war, social upheavals, instead of any of the things fascists would traditionally ride into power, they have the outrage.
No Trump, no outrage.

Most may not even take Trump seriously. But they must make visible attempts at pretending to take him seriously. Not making the attempts to put on a show would violate Rule #1. And taking Trump seriously is to descend to his clownshow.
Anyone trying it while maintaining dignity, decorum, or sincerity, would stand out like a shit on fire.

It's an Outrage-Ouroboros. They need to keep Trump going, to keep the outrage going, to keep the Overton where they like it. So they descend to the grotesque clownshow, coming up with one boogeyman after the other they and their followers can harm without going to prison.
But so long as they descend to the grotesque clownshow, so long as they pick people they and their followers can harm, they need to keep Trump going. They need him to justify it all. Perhaps not to justify the hate or anything. But to justify the undignified mess they have made their political lives. At least to justify it to themselves.

Trump's fuel is outrage, but it is not progressive or liberal outrage. "Just stop paying him attention" is a worthless platitude and ignores what is going on.
The outrage fuel for Trump is manufactured by but also for MAGA, republicans, etc. Trump remains unfortunately relevant not because he has an army of opponents, but an army of supporters, outrage on his behalf. THEM's you gotta stop paying attention. Good luck.

[Jaeger]

I was under the impression that that was exactly what they're doing?

As for the shit's unending string of indictments. Jayzuz. If I may offer a presumptuous outsider's perspective:

The republicans it seems don't know if they're coming, going, or taking a shit. But they know they must stick to Trump. Seen from over here, at this point, he is the republican party.
Ever wondered how a Cult of Personality looks up close?

THIS. 1000x this. YES, it's quite obviously a Cult of Personality the likes of which The West hasn't truly seen in decades. Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet... all cut from the same cloth.

Wanna know what's the absolute worst thing about the concept of "American Exceptionalism"? It's that we, in aggregate, really do believe "it can't happen here."

You, Herr Golgo, are the product of a culture/country/society who once thought that and unfortunately learned it was catastrophically wrong.

We -- Yankees -- haven't learned that lesson, the U.S. Civil War, Vietnam, Afghanistan, and Iraq notwithstanding. I pray to whatever gods may be that America figures it out before things get worse.

I like your image of the "Outrage Ouroboros." It's frightful yet succinct and accurate to those who get the reference. Yes, it is painfully clear there are plenty of right-leaning Republican types who know full fucking well what's going on. To me that makes it worse as they knowingly and consciously embrace the flaming turd that is Jackass. They recognize they're undermining whatever tatters may actually be left of "American Exceptionalism" and are collectively wiping their asses with it.

God(s) help me, but Ronald Fucking Reagan was right in that we ('Murika) need to serve as the "Shining City on the Hill." On that he and I totally agree. I expect even Ronnie would be vomiting if he could see the shit-show that has become the GOP.

You are again obviously correct regarding "maintaining their narratives." To me it's the antithesis of, y'know, THINKING when someone cannot adjust their viewpoint and understanding to new information. And it's not like there weren't big flashing signs saying "Hey, uh, this guy isn't entirely trustworthy," but there's something like 20-30% of the American population who would follow that tangerine motherfucker into the maw of hell if he said so.

I cannot for the life of me fathom why. He sets of every single bullshit detector I have.

Like I said above, I recall arguing against "punching Nazis" on principle. It's not always clear who's the Nazi, and quite frankly I don't trust many of the self-identifying "Antifa" to tell the difference. Everybody has their knickers too far up their collective asses to be mindful, circumspect, and fair.

HOWEVER...

...deep down I just want the Tangerine Jackass to die. To go away. He's become far too messianic for a segment of the population to deal with consciously or logically. I'm slightly shocked that nobody's taken a shot at him, though that's probably for the best as the LAST fuckin' think we need to deal with is a martyred Jackass. Nevertheless, he's a threat so long as he's drawing breath and will only diminish once he's a fat orange glob rotting in the Earth.

I'm not proud of that statement, but it's the truth. He's a contender for the crown with a bunch of lunatic followers who won't let go. Let's see if any of his kids try to "claim the crown."

The gods have mercy on us all.

--Jaeger

[motorpsycho67]

..... for all the Democrats' failings they're not fascists.
--Jaeger

Not so fast, Sherlock.....



Our government operates on a good cop/bad cop basis.

"All it takes for fascism to succeed is for good men to do nothing...." ... which is exactly what they've done.


The GOP is the Party of Fascism. The Democrats are the Innocent Bystander party.


Even the current proceedings are a dog and pony show. Nothing meaningful is going to happen to Trump.


Why?


To punish him would set a precedent Neither party wants their president to be held accountable for their shenanigans. They'll do anything to avoid that.... including a dog and pony show.


Remember waiting with baited breath for the Mueller Report to conclude?


And the result? .... BUPKUS



The US government has been operating on smoke and mirrors since long before you or I were breathing. The corruption and fascist tendencies go far deeper than most people realize.

I'm not just pulling nonsense out of thin air. I've read a LOT over the last 40 or so years that paints a very interesting picture.

[DerGolgo]

You are again obviously correct regarding "maintaining their narratives." To me it's the antithesis of, y'know, THINKING when someone cannot adjust their viewpoint and understanding to new information.

I've just had a thought.
Recently, the definition of "the right wing" as someone who asserts that there is an ingroup whom the law does not bind, and an outgroup whom the law does not protect, has been making the rounds.
Reading your statement here, the thought occurs.

Conservatives? What the heck are they conserving?
Maybe I'm late to this party, but it just made click.
What are they conserving? Their narrative.
Not "social values", not "economic whatever". But "what's in my head".

They will not change their mind when confronted with new information. That's what them stinking lefties/progressives do.
Conservatives have made up their mind, and they will conserve whatever rotten, obsolete, or plain wrong ideas are stuck in there. But they will step on anyone to make that happen, too. Not just the marginalized. They will step on anyone foolish enough to support them if it helps them shape the world into whatever their personal narrative says it should be.

They say that people get more conservative as they get older. This has been discredited. People don't get more conservative as they get older. They'll remain about as conservative or progressive as they became when they were young. It's the whole political spectrum that shifts around them. Ideas that were progressive and out there forty years ago are now acceptable and unremarkable even in conservative politics.
Now, the regressive push in the US. Would not have been possible sans Trump.
People around whom the spectrum had shifted, taking them from progressive to conservative, are sliding back into progressive due to this shift. Which means that a lot of recently conservative ideas are suddenly "progressive", dragging that whole part of the spectrum back and to the right, unfortunately.
BUT
If the shift is too far, too extreme, they might loose too many ex-progressives, who become progressive again.
Finding themselves and their values in that part of the spectrum, they won't feel obliged to vote for conservative politicians. Rather, they may just feel they should vote for the progressive candidate.

Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez 2024!

It's not always clear who's the Nazi, and quite frankly I don't trust many of the self-identifying "Antifa" to tell the difference. Everybody has their knickers too far up their collective asses to be mindful, circumspect, and fair.

I think it's quite safe to assume that people waving nazi flags and bearing nazi symbols, exclusively and explicitly spouting nazi talking points, marching with tiki-torches, and throwing the right-arm salute at their meetings, are fucking nazis.
And if you want to differentiate between nazis and fascists, well. It's AntiFA, not AntiNA. Any time you punch a nazi, you're also punching a fascist. And I propose that punching fascists, even if they aren't nazis, is just as laudable.

Nevertheless, he's a threat so long as he's drawing breath and will only diminish once he's a fat orange glob rotting in the Earth.
...
Let's see if any of his kids try to "claim the crown."

People are still waxing lyrically about Hitler. AND about Stalin. Though it's generally either/or, not both.
People are also still quoting Mussolini, complaining that everything was better when the Junta was in charge, etc., etc.
Certain scumbags seem to never let go of the minds of their followers. Many, I'm sure, just refuse to change their mind, at the very least because that would be an admission of having worshipped a bowl full of shit in human form, or having fallen for propaganda narratives, etc., etc.
But regardless of anyone claiming the crown. Trump has left such a fetid footprint on the US and the world, his groupies won't go away. And so long as they praise him and demand that his edicts be followed, the republican party will be under his influence. For the next 10 years or 100. There would have to be a purge of Trumpista thought and persons. Effectively, your republican party would have to remake itself into a brand new party. A "Party of Theseus" situation.

[DerGolgo]

Our government operates on a good cop/bad cop basis.

"All it takes for fascism to succeed is for good men to do nothing...." ... which is exactly what they've done.

The GOP is the Party of Fascism. The Democrats are the Innocent Bystander party.

Neutrality aids the oppressor. Always. You can't be neutral on a moving train. Take your pick.
It is true. The fascist's most powerful supporters don't support fascism. A vocal minority of people actually pro-fascist is enough, since the not-pro-fascist majority won't stop them. That has ever been the case.
The fascists want a vast majority who don't wanna rock the boat, who try to be bipartisan, who just won't stand up against fascism. That's what makes it work. A vast majority who won't stand in the way of the vocal and violent minority.

You know how "there were never any nazis in germany", or however you want to express it, regarding how after WW2, somehow, no german would admit to having been a nazi?
For a lot of them, they wouldn't admit to never having been a nazi because they were nazis and the admission would have meant repercussions for previous deeds.

But I have come to the conclusion that the vast majority of germans maybe really weren't nazis. Nor particularly pro nazi. Many having grown up with a kaiser to venerate, making a cult around a fuhrer was no great change. And the nazis were big tent bigots, virtually anyone from mainstream german society would have found something they liked.

But by and large, most people just stood by. They didn't want to deport all the Jews, and the Romani, and the Unionists, and ... but they didn't care if someone else did. They didn't want to invade and subjugate europe. But even if they didn't feel their heart swell with nationalistic, militaristic pride in laying a continent to ashes. They didn't care that someone else was invading and subjugating Europe. They didn't want genocide against anyone. But even if they knew it was going on. They didn't care if someone else was doing it.

It was always someone else, not someone they had any influence over. Or they'd tell themselves as much.
They probably enjoyed Kristallnacht, even if they didn't cheer.
But they only ever saw themselves as bystanders.
They were bystanders of convenience, of course. Feel the feels and grab the benefits when things went well, be all kinds of blameless if they didn't, and never take the great risk of choosing a side in the meantime.

A few were, probably, really, genuinely neutral, and didn't even feel the positive feels goebbels was screaming out of the radio. But they were still that silent majority the nazis could depend on.

The US government has been operating on smoke and mirrors since long before you or I were breathing. The corruption and fascist tendencies go far deeper than most people realize.

It is important to acknowledge this. Fascism/nazism didn't materialize out of nothing. There was no invasion of little brown men from space in 1933 that turned germany into the nazi state. Just like there had been no such even in Italy, when Mussolini took over. It is nice to think that all of Spain was filled with loyal Republicans (different meaning in Spain), but Franco couldn't lead an army without at least the army's support - and that army reflected society at large, at least the factions on the political right.

Whatever political/ethnic/religious bigotry was focused and distilled into the small fascist movement that could do what they liked with the aid of the convenient bystanders.
Those ideas, they didn't come out of no place. German society leading up to the 1930s had already been plenty antisemitic, out of sheer tradition. Not generally murderous antisemitism. But still entirely happy to hear someone was finally doing something about the jews, finally resolving the jewish question.
There was authoritarianism, of course - coupled with the corruption and nepotism from personality-cultism. Anyone in any place of influence would not tolerate being challenged or even just have their decisions questioned. Still don't.
That's why a lack of transparency lets fascists build power bases before the time is right. Put people into positions of authority, or bring them on side, have an instant enforcer who makes sure some larger entity won't get in the fascist's way.

That's part of how fascism flourishes, even once its in broad daylight. Bonapartism and nepotism. Handing out juicy jobs to loyal supporters, and to those who glommed on just for that, so they can get anyone they have influence over on side. A lot of which would then take the form of handing out government money for something or other. The nazis consolidated much of their power over germany by just buying it, spending insane amounts of money on rearmament, handing out one juicy contract upon the next. They issued so many bonds, they couldn't have waited much longer before going to war - the country was about to slide into epic bankruptcy.

[Jaeger]

"All it takes for fascism to succeed is for good men to do nothing...." ... which is exactly what they've done.
The GOP is the Party of Fascism. The Democrats are the Innocent Bystander party.

Yeah, I hear what you’re saying and don’t entirely disagree. I do remember a time when I viewed the Dems and the GOP as two sides of the same coin. I miss the days when I could vote 3rd party as a protest vote with a clear conscience.

It makes me angry that I’m effectively “forced” into the Dem camp. I don’t trust them especially either. Still, at least they’re not the actively evil group.

I hesitate to use the word “evil,” but it’s becoming increasingly clear that there is precisely no “good faith” left in a large portion of the GOP. Those that are still trying to cling to the last shreds of it it (e.g., Mike Pence, Mitt Romney, Liz Cheney) are getting fucking defenestrated.

It offends me that once again I'm almost certainly going to wind up voting Democratic not because I'm a card-carrying member but because Uncle Joe will be running against a fucking fascist or fascist-wannabe (e.g., DeSantis).

You wanna know what's truly fucked up? Bipartisan politics. I wish I had a solution.

The US government has been operating on smoke and mirrors since long before you or I were breathing. The corruption and fascist tendencies go far deeper than most people realize.

Quoth Ike in 1961 (upon his leaving office, in fact):

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be might, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction. . . . American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. . . . This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. . . .Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. . . . In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

(Emphasis mine)

I don't quite agree that "it's always been fascism." We've been bigoted, corrupt, short-sighted, and petty, but up until now I haven't seen anything I'd point at and say "fascist," though you might make an argument w/r/t Native Americans, reservations, etc -- and even THEN it wasn't quite Auschwitz.

RELATED SIDE NOTE: I cannot recommend the book Caste by Isabel Wilkerson enough. It touches precisely on this point. It's troubling and brilliant, and provides a fascinating -- and disturbing -- comparison between racism and bigotry in the U.S. vs. the Nazis vs. the Hindu caste system in India.

Conservatives? What the heck are they conserving?
Maybe I'm late to this party, but it just made click.
What are they conserving? Their narrative.
Not "social values", not "economic whatever". But "what's in my head".

Yeah, I struggle with this one too. The term “conservative” has been hijacked, at least here in the U.S. They’re not conserving a goddamn thing. Rather, they’ve become corrosive to the fabric of democracy. ANYBODY who supports trying to disenfranchise voters through corruption and fraud has utterly lost track of how this shit works.

Jackass was duly elected in 2016. I didn’t like it, and he obviously didn’t win the majority of the votes, but he won the electoral collage (“The Game”) and thus he won the presidency. I didn’t like it – and neither did a lot of people – but we recognized it was legit and grit our teeth for 4 years.

Then we voted the fat orange bitch out of office. Legitimately.

He’s not on here anymore, but I had lunch with Beltway sometime around 2018 and told him “Look, no matter what happens in 2020, there’s at least 20-30% of the population that won’t accept the results of the presidential election. If Jackass wins, I will likely be among that 20%.” It’s not like it was some surprise. I’m just sad I was so accurate.

Ideas that were progressive and out there forty years ago are now acceptable and unremarkable even in conservative politics.
Now, the regressive push in the US. Would not have been possible sans Trump.

To wit: the only “Republican” I recognized running in 2016 was Hillary.

And if you want to differentiate between nazis and fascists, well. It's AntiFA, not AntiNA. Any time you punch a nazi, you're also punching a fascist. And I propose that punching fascists, even if they aren't nazis, is just as laudable.

Technically, I believe Mussolini was the one who coined “fascist.” “Nazi” is specifically German.

To loop back up to MP67’s earlier point, my concern is that I don’t trust the AntiFa folks to be mindful or circumspect either. Zealots are zealots, regardless of their ideology, and I trust none of them.

I was trained as a journalist to be objective. It troubles me beyond expression that not only is a huge segment of the population not capable of being objective, but they deny that any objectivity is even possible, that truth is entirely relative, and that reality is malleable.

It is precisely this sort of shit that causes Holocaust denial. I mean, fer fuckssakes, there’s already some disagreement about what happened on January 6th 2020. Was it a fucking insurrection or a “peaceful protest”?

It must’ve been something considering Jackass’ lawyers are concerned that a “jury of his peers” drawn from the city in which shit went down are not going to believe the “peaceful protest” argument, but goddamn if some of these shitwits who’ve never been to DC want to believe that it was all roses and hugs – videos, admissions, convictions, and deaths aside.

You say “neutrality” is what causes fascism to flourish.

I will counter that it’s outright denial. That denial is almost certainly based on existing biases, but

“Oh, they’re not really killing Jews in the concentration camps.”

“Oh, it can’t really be that bad.”

Yes. Yes, it fucking well can.

--Jaeger

[DerGolgo]

You say “neutrality” is what causes fascism to flourish.

I will counter that it’s outright denial. That denial is almost certainly based on existing biases, but

“Oh, they’re not really killing Jews in the concentration camps.”

“Oh, it can’t really be that bad.”

Yes. Yes, it fucking well can.

--Jaeger

People in denial also end up claiming to be neutral. Not wanting to take sides may be what prompts the denial. Maybe the denial is what prompts them to refuse taking sides.
Taking the "for" side would be counter to the entire purpose of the denial.
Taking the "against" side would be to admit that there is something to deny in the first place.

Oh, and people knew.

I had a music teacher who told us about getting out of the cities, relating to the allied bombing offensive. Going to stay with an aunt. When he climbed out of the train with his mother and siblings, he remarked that it smelled like someone was cooking meat.
His aunt, who was picking them up, straight up slapped him. She told them it came from that place, and forbade any of them to mention anything relating to that. And that it might look like snow, but it wasn't, and they should stay out of it.
He later found out that the smell was from people going in the ovens. And that the not snow was their ashes.

And it wasn't just the locals and their visitors/refugee guests who knew.

I read a few short excerpt from the diaries of Victor Klemperer. Among the horde famous Klemperers, he was one of the famous journalists. The one who hadn't escaped to America before the war.

Having an "aryan" wife, he was spared deportation. He wasn't spared being forced to live in an overcrowded, falling apart "judenhaus", nor starvation rations, nor forced labor in various factories, nor harassment and haranguing by the junior brownshirts, by the actual gestapo, and by Dresden citizens acting on their own, antisemitic initiative.
He wasn't exactly starved for things to tell his diary about.

He wrote about the scuttlebutt that one particular internment camp, some place called "Auschwitz", was outright hellish, so bad it just had to be the worst of the lot. I think that was 1943 or 1944 when he wrote that.
A while later, he wrote explicitly about the industrial mass murder of deported Jews in places like Auschwitz. Not as scuttlebutt, but as fact.

People knew.
Maybe not everybody in all of germany. And maybe not until rather late in the war.
But this fella was living the life of a Jew in the middle of nazi germany.
He hardly had the opportunity to track down and interview witnesses, or take a trip to have a look, or dig through public reports, or any of that journalisting work.
He found out. When he considered it hearsay, he described it as such. Journalist.
He wrote up the industrial mass murder as simple fact.
It didn't take resistance fighters or allied sympathizers to get the word out. Thousands upon thousands of ss soldiers served in the camps. Even if they didn't tell their families when they came home. A lot of them would tell the guys over a glass beer or a schnapps at the local inn.
After all that antisemitic propaganda, hearing they were getting murdered by insecticide, in their tens of thousands. All while the war was getting less and less fabulous. A lot of people would have liked to hear about it, and to tell about it.
Not openly. All very hush hush.
But people knew.

[motorpsycho67]

There were FAR more Native Americans slaughtered by the US gubmint than Jews in Germany. It was just conveniently left out of history books.

Quite familiar with the Ike speech. He was the last good Republican IMO.


Let's not forget that the vast majority of politicians in the US are quite conservative. The progressives we have are center left and toothless.

[Jaeger]

There were FAR more Native Americans slaughtered by the US gubmint than Jews in Germany. It was just conveniently left out of history books.

This one is tough, simply because the Krauts were meticulous book keepers and the Yanks really weren't w/r/t the Natives they slaughtered, so it's hard to make a 1:1 comparison.

I'm married to a Jew who lost family in the Holocaust so it's hard to be objective. Please believe me when I say that raising Jews changes one's perspective on such things. My wife and my children would've been on the same train regardless of our surname.

Nevertheless, I take your point; at bare minimum, Israel has nukes and Native Americans have the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I know which situation I'd rather be in, the current regime of Bibi Netanyahu notwithstanding. He's a cunt.

Still, all that should also provide some context on Israel. There's a reason they are the way they are. They really do mean "Never Again." I imagine the Comanche, Apache, et al would say the same if they had nukes.

Quite familiar with the Ike speech. He was the last good Republican IMO.
Let's not forget that the vast majority of politicians in the US are quite conservative. The progressives we have are center left and toothless.

I suppose what troubles me the most is how little I actually think any of us know who these fuckers are. I've no idea really whether most of these folks are "conservative" or "liberal" or fuckin' anything, frankly, as those labels are increasingly irrelevant IMHO. They're all power-hungry demagogues of one degree or another, from AOC to MTG (though I'd rather the former than the latter on most conceivable fronts).

To be as diplomatic and even-keeled as I can be, let me quote Ishmael in Moby Dick: "...better sleep with a sober cannibal than a drunken Christian."

Beware faulting the Dems for being "toothless." That road equally leads to autocracy. The Dems are still trying, on some level, to play by the Marquis of Queensbury rules. The GOP hasn't done that since Newt Fucking Gingrich in the '90s. Sadly, that does mean the Dems are working at a tactical disadvantage -- by insisting that reality is real, facts are facts, and up is up.

Note that that fat, hypocritical turd (i.e., Gingrich) had dinner with Jackass recently discussing next steps. This is all an extension of the Culture War Newt instigated in the 1990s, and you (MP67) are obviously old enough to remember that shit. At the time he was an annoying blowhard, but the fat bitch isn't stupid, and sadly he just won't die. He, like McConnell, are responsible for the current fucked-uppedness. They had the chance to stop things. They had the chance to cry "enough." They didn't. They embraced the chaos. They're apparently comfortable with tearing the country apart.

I fear for what's coming. I worry tremendously about the next year, election, and the country my kids will inherit. I desperately want to pass on an "America" to my children, the youngest of whom will graduate high school in 2031.

I didn't sign up to raise kids in a civil war. I signed up to try to raise good citizens to the U.S.A. who're thoughtful, mindful, and circumspect regarding the country, our citizens, and the world as a whole. I know shit happens and nothing is perfect, but the current environment that encourages people to cling to beliefs that are not just inaccurate but hazardous -- e.g., that January 6 didn't happen or was some sort of "acceptable protest" -- are as toxic as anything put forth by Alex Fucking Jones and his denial of Sandy Hook.

--Jaeger

[Bigshankhank]

This is why I keep coming back (albeit my attendance is potty lately) to this board. I don’t envy you raising kids in this cultural phenomenon we are watching, it’s fucking terrifying. My daughter had her 1st back in late ‘21 and while we are enjoying the shit out of having a grandbaby, I can’t help but fear that I am not doing enough to make for a better world for him. One man can only do so much, even the Newt G’s of the world need an army of enablers and AM radio talking heads to achieve what they can.
Keep the fight alive.

[DerGolgo]

There were FAR more Native Americans slaughtered by the US gubmint than Jews in Germany. It was just conveniently left out of history books.

This one is tough, simply because the Krauts were meticulous book keepers and the Yanks really weren't w/r/t the Natives they slaughtered, so it's hard to make a 1:1 comparison.

I have no intent of kicking off, or of accusing anybody else of having kicked off, a genocide olympics.
Even if the United States had murdered only 1/10 of the people murdered in the Holocaust. It would not have been any less evil.

However, you know how much I obsess about historical nuance. There is a qualitative difference between the motivators for either genocide that should be considered when discussing them.

The Native Americans were murdered because they were in the way. They had to die because they were in the way of manifest destiny (or just "the white man", or even just "His Majesty's loyal subjects", depending on era). It was considered acceptable to kill them all because manifest destiny was more important than Native lives; they were obviously less-than-human.
But they became less than human because they were in the way of manifest destiny in the first place.

The Jews of Europe, and the other groups murdered as part of the Holocaust, were considered less-than-human - a priori. They were hunted down, down to the last individual that could be found, wherever that individual might have been suspected to be hiding, because they were less-than human.
In 1933, Jews made up 0.75% of the total population in Germany. They were hardly in the way. Rather, they were.

Many may have owned or occupied property that some gentile fuckers wanted. But that wasn't part of some manifest destiny. Stealing Jewish property wasn't part of the national ethos.
It was more incidental greed, a feeling of entitlement rationalized by our long standing tradition that they're Jews, they're the bad.

The idea that Jews were less-than-human seems to have come first. Just like "Jews evil" had come first in the public consciousness during previous periods of popular antisemitic extremism. When rationalizations such as the litany of infamous blood libels were tacked on after judgment had been rendered; after it had been decided that Jews were all evil.
Jews are less than human, rationalize that they are, therefore, if we want it, we get to have their property.

Meanwhile, and do correct me if I'm wrong, what I've learned about the Native American genocide, seems to have been to some degree the inverse of that.

The Native Americans weren't so much seen as evil schemers who having amassed and hoarded all that real estate. Rather, weren't seen as owning it at all. Were considered squatters, if that.

White people deciding the land was theirs came first. The decision that Native Americans were less-than-human and could be killed with impunity came second, once it had been noticed that they wouldn't fuck off of "the white man's land".
We want this land for our destiny, rationalize just how incredible that destiny makes the white man, therefore, anyone who won't let us have it has no right to be considered a person, is less than human.

I'm not suggesting white people before the westward expansion considered Native Americans to be their equal, or would afford them the same respect they afforded other white people. Racism was extant, obviously, Natives were seen by many/most as "primitive brutes", or "child-like brutes", any kind of brute.
But brutes, even if it was acceptable to kill one, were still, by and large, people. Humans, if such that weren't protected by the customs or laws protecting the white man. Lesser humans, but humans.

Genocide, hunting down Native Americans like wild beasts, arbitrarily massacring men, women, and children, enforcing famine, and biological warfare, extermination. With practices like slicing off scalps of murdered natives, as proof required to collect the bounty offered for each dead native. A practice mirroring the black-death era bounty paid for each rat's tail, promoting the extermination of rats.
That takes full dehumanization. From lesser humans to less-than-human.

When a captain at Fort Pitt handed smallpox blankets to a delegation of Delaware Indians in 1763, that delegation had come to the fort to request the white men get off of the Delaware's land.
At the time, handing off some soiled textiles from a smallpox hospital wasn't even considered disposing of infectious waste. The captain in question was also a fur trader, and his company invoiced the government for two smallpox hospital blankets, soiled, a smallpox hospital handkerchief, soiled, and a linen sheet, clean, to wrap the rest up in.
Until they stepped in the way of the white man, genocide of Native Americans just hadn't been an active project, by the looks of it. Or someone would have procured those textiles in advance, it wouldn't have been improvised by the fella with local knowledge.

I have no doubt that the captain who handed over the blankets was a racist and didn't consider the Delaware to be worthy a fraction of the respect he might have for a white man.
Him being a fur trader who was installed as a captain at a frontier fort, I have further no doubt that, above all, he was a utilitarian pragmatist. And considered genocide against the Delaware as no more than an efficacious solution to his current problem. That having been to establish and fortify the white man's constant presence in the area. The racism being part of rationalizing the genocide, not the trigger for it.

The genocide of Native Americans was in service of a greater aim, eventually called "manifest destiny".
The genocide against the Jews of Europe was the aim. In itself.
Native Americans were in the way. Jews just were.

None of which makes either genocide more or less evil than the other.
But there is historical nuance here that I think is important to recognize. Even if I can't lay my finger on why it's important, it just feels like it is.

[Jaeger]

There were FAR more Native Americans slaughtered by the US gubmint than Jews in Germany. It was just conveniently left out of history books.

This one is tough, simply because the Krauts were meticulous book keepers and the Yanks really weren't w/r/t the Natives they slaughtered, so it's hard to make a 1:1 comparison.

I have no intent of kicking off, or of accusing anybody else of having kicked off, a genocide olympics.
Even if the United States had murdered only 1/10 of the people murdered in the Holocaust. It would not have been any less evil.
...

See, I knew you'd chime in here to save me the time of writing it.

Indeed, "genocide olympics" is all too accurate a term for the current trend of wearing pain and self-righteousness as a cloak to excuse and justify bigoted bullshit. There's plenty of that to go around, I've no desire to contribute. Like I said above, it's a tough one.

Again, I recommend the book Caste as required reading. You, in particular, DerG, would likely appreciate. It's honestly one of the few books of late that truly rocked my world.

And thanks for your sympathy, BSH -- or should I say, GRANDPA!

--Jaeger

[DerGolgo]

Again, I recommend the book Caste as required reading. You, in particular, DerG, would likely appreciate. It's honestly one of the few books of late that truly rocked my world.

Thanks. It's in the Audible queue.