JACKBOOTED THUGS

Articles, Commentary and Discussion about politics.
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors - Plato
User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:49 am

I read an article the other day written by a guy who is apparently in police academy. It's titled "My Police Academy Teaches the ‘War on Cops’ Myth."

I think it's safe to say that a society needs some form of a police force. The size, scope, intent, and mentality of that force is another matter entirely.

I'm told that policing in America has changed over the past several decades. I've watched the evolution since the late '80s and I know there was a shift after 9/11.

My question to you folks is... Is there some clear dividing line between "protecting and serving" and "being a jackbooted thug"?

In short, while I appreciate the need of officers to command some level of respect/authority and occasionally use violence, I fear America's cops have drifted pretty solidly into the "jackbooted thugs" column. This week alone had the non-exploding clock and the jaywalking teen. Y'all know about plenty of other incidents (Furgeson, Baltimore, South Carolina, etc.)

Is this shit as prevalent everywhere or just in urban areas? Are the rural Deputy Dogs turning into the gestapo too?

So... where's the line? Is there one? Ideas?

--Jaeger


Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:32 am

The line, or part of the line, is that a cop uses his authority when it's appropriate.
Does the cop treat the citizenry like one polite, civilized citizen would treat others, or does he show up and treat everyone like shit on his heel?
When, proceeding down the street and finding someone meddling about with their car lock, will he ask "Hey, locked yourself out?" or will he draw his weapon and bellow "FREEZE!!"?
When there is no imminent danger to anyone, a cop will treat a suspect like that. A suspect. A jackbooted thug will treat a suspect like a punching bag.
A cop will try to deescalate when he encounters people having an argument. Firmly, but still, deescalation. A jackbooted thug will yell and point his gun at people.

A proper policeman is a citizen in uniform. With additional authority and responsibility, but still a citizen like everybody else, just in uniform. And will act accordingly. When he misbehaves, he will face consequences, which the public will see, victims of his misbehavior will receive compensation. This will reassure the public that, if a cop mistreats them, they can complain and seek redress without having to fear the consequences.

A jackbooted thug is someone who considers his job and himself above everybody else. Makes it clear to demonstrate his dominance of and disrespect for others as part of his everyday behavior. When he misbehaves, he is protected behind a blue wall of silence and receives, at best, token punishment. While the victims of his misbehavior will, in all likelihood, at best get minimum compensation and will be coerced into signing a non-disclosure agreement. Or, more likely, will get bugger all. Or will even be charged with something or other. The public will see this and, in turn, will learn that complaining about the cops is not advisable.

As people come to see it as inadvisable to complain about a misbehaving cop, they will soon see it as inadvisable to even call the cops. A deeper and deeper trench is created between the general population and the police force, and while without recourse to police protection society becomes more and more lawless, thugs wear more and more jackboots.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

12ci
Ayatollah of Mayhem
Location: Rive Gauche Anacostia

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by 12ci » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:08 pm

Jaeger wrote: Is this shit as prevalent everywhere or just in urban areas? Are the rural Deputy Dogs turning into the gestapo too?
is Waco urban or rural?


on the other hand, you can't get much less urban than Stonewall Mississippi.

i was in mississippi when this happened, and this is how the local "alternative" paper reported it:

http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/news/20 ... ers-death/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Based on the testimony of other witnesses who live near where the scene played out, Herrington caught up with Sanders down the road and flashed the blue lights of his squad car. Sanders' horse reared up, presumably frightened by the lights, knocking Sanders from the buggy and causing the headlamp he was wearing around his head to fall around his neck. The horse started to run off, and Sanders ran after him.

According to the lawyers, witnesses say Herrington chased after Sanders, grabbing at the headlamp around his neck and pulled him to the ground, which the attorneys believe could be where early false reports came from about Herrington using a flashlight to subdue Sanders. From there, Herrington spun Sanders around and applied a headlock, they said.

Witnesses told the lawyers that Sanders was face down with his hands underneath him; Herrington was on his knees in front of Sanders, they said. By then, several neighbors had gone outside, including a witness who told Herrington that Sanders would not be able to breathe with his face buried in the tall grass.

The attorneys say that Herrington had a female companion with him in the police car, who was not an officer. As Herrington applied a chokehold, attorneys say, the officer instructed the female companion to remove his gun from its holster so that Sanders could not reach it; however, the woman could not unholster the weapon, but one of the witnesses was able to tell her how to remove it.

Witnesses told the attorneys that Sanders said at least twice that he could not breathe, attorneys say. Another witness went home and got a mask that would enable them to perform CPR just in case it was needed. Attorneys say Sanders never fought the officer and did not move throughout the incident. Herrington did not let the witness perform CPR and maintained the headlock until backup and emergency-medical technicians arrived as much as 30 minutes later, the attorneys for the Sanders family say.

The attorneys, Lumumba and Lawrence, said Sanders had no active warrants and cannot understand why Herrington would follow Sanders.

"You can't speed on a horse," Lawrence said. "What crime could you have committed that would require a violent takedown?"
there are so many things wrong about this scenario that i have a hard time believing it, and yet...
today you decide what tomorrow will bring

12ci
Ayatollah of Mayhem
Location: Rive Gauche Anacostia

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by 12ci » Sun Sep 20, 2015 7:55 pm

Jaeger wrote: the jaywalking teen.
after reading the story linked above, i have little sympathy for Emilio Mayfield. telling a cop "fuck you" is not the way to win friends or influence people.
Joseph Silva, a spokesman for Stockton’s police department, told the Guardian that the boy swore at the officer when he was asked to leave the bus lane.

“These things wouldn’t happen if people followed officers’ lawful instructions,” Silva said.
yes, there are a few jackbooted thugs out there, but the general population has a responsibility to be civil, too, even in the case of an unlawful order. the "golden rule" applies both ways.

the kid clearly never saw this:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8[/media]
today you decide what tomorrow will bring

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:34 am

12ci wrote: yes, there are a few jackbooted thugs out there, but the general population has a responsibility to be civil, too, even in the case of an unlawful order. the "golden rule" applies both ways.

the kid clearly never saw this:
Yeah, that kid really kicked a hornet's next, but the whole situation spiraled way out of control.

There's a need for some level of respect for the police. Telling them to go fuck themselves is a sure-fire way to attract unwanted attention. Likewise, wrestling with an agitated officer is a bad idea. Once the cop's pissed, the best tactic is to relax and stop fighting unless you really want to call down the wrath of god. Otherwise you wind up dealing with a lot of cops, they're all agitated, and they try to reenact the scene with Rodney King.

But for fuckssakes, really? I totally understand this kid's attitude, especially if (speculating here) he's been harassed in the past. He was jaywalking and not very badly at that (again, assuming the witnesses' version is correct). Is it worth it to kick the crap out of a kid for saying "fuck you"?

Anybody with any sense recognizes that the cops have the upper edge in terms of ability to bring violence to bear. My question is when is it wise for them to do so, particularly in a time when there's increased scrutiny? When is it really appropriate? How much force?

I don't claim to have answers to these questions. I'm just tired of always working on the assumption that any given cop is about 3 seconds from trying to put a bullet in my head. I've worked on that assumption since I was a kid and I've STILL had cops fingering their weapons when approaching me, even when sitting in my car on the side of the road, engine off, hands on steering wheel.

Folks perceive there's an adversarial relationship with the cops BECAUSE THERE IS. I sure as shit don't want to tell my kids "you can always trust a police officer" because from where i'm sitting it's not true!

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

thack
Magnum Jihad

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by thack » Fri Sep 25, 2015 3:30 pm

swearing at the police is not illegal.
the first amendment is pretty certain of that.

http://blogs.denverpost.com/crime/2011/ ... llegal/48/

however, if you swear at a cop, the BEST thing that will happen to you afterwards is that you'll be ticketed.
typically, you'll be beaten.
it's likely you'll be beaten to death or shot, because, yes, cops are jackbooted thugs. sociopathic, rage-conditioned, steroid-abusing, hyper-violent warriors who's only concern is killing you.
they want to kill everyone, because it's us vs them, and we're them. we teach them this in school.
not all of them, but like i tell the kids, not all tigers will eat your entrails from your still warm corpse, but you don't want to find out which ones the hard way.

they will blow up your house and not think twice about it, and you get nothing. better hope you had good insurance.
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/fr ... n-atrocity

they will let you die, WHILE THEY WATCH, and DENY YOU MEDICAL, because you're not one of them. and this guy was essentially in debtor's prison - fail to pay a fine? DEATH PENALTY.
http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/man- ... y/35452790

i could do this pretty much all day. i have had personal experience with this sort of thing (REALLY not to any permanently harmful extent, but still) in the distant past. when i was young and looked like a freak driving a hot rod around the south. the only thing that's changed in the last 50 years is that people have cameras now, and the cops are more willing to beat not just minorities, but anyone that crosses them. i guess that's progress.

goose
Pâté de Foie Gras
Location: Foggy Peninsula West of Oakland and South of Marin

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by goose » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:26 pm

it kind of depends on how the swearing took place . . . but swearing at a cop absent a credible threat, protected speech. I am often asked, "Can a cop search my car for no reason?" . . . . and my answer is always: YES. The guy has a badge, a gun and "can" do whatever he wants to with at least a verneer of justifiable reasons for acting. Now, the real question is "Was the search legal?" "Can incriminating evidence be used against me if it search was illegal?" This is why your founding fathers enumerated your right to shut the fuck up. It's because you need to shut the fuck up. Excercise your right to shut the fuck up, how did you consent? You didn't. Now the cop has a burder to prove he had probable cause. If he had probable cause, he didn't have to ask for consent. Hence, why did he/she?

There is nothing to be gained by swearing at a cop. Seriously. If the cop is doing something they shouldn't, you think swearing will stop them? Ugh! people. So, can you swear at a cop. Sure. Is there a question of contextg as to whether it's illegal? There sure is (it's not the swearing, it's the charge of obstruction or claims by the cop that the swearing was perceived as a threat that you have to worry. In any event, right or wrong, you're likely to sit in a jail cell for a day or two if the cop is angry enough. In my limited experience with such issues, cops exercise substantial patience and control when faced with citizens that spew obscenities at them. .02
Drink triples til you're seeing double, feeling single, and looking for trouble! -Johnny Nitro, RIP

"British bikes of that era are made of a special alloy known as Brittainium. It is the only metal known to be able to rust even when fully submerged in oil. It also corrodes microscopic passages through itself whenever it makes contact with any known gasketing material." - AZ Rider

Re: Husaberg Build: "I pictured it more like the heroin addicted ex that keeps turning up, the bleeding you dry, breaking your heart, and crushing your soul, but you keep taking her back because it's the most fun ride you've ever had..." Bo-9

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:35 am

goose wrote: . . . . and my answer is always: YES. The guy has a badge, a gun and "can" do whatever he wants to with at least a verneer of justifiable reasons for acting. Now, the real question is "Was the search legal?" "Can incriminating evidence be used against me if it search was illegal?" This is why your founding fathers enumerated your right to shut the fuck up. It's because you need to shut the fuck up.
Agreed on all points, but most especially this one. This also gets back to my original question, which was "at what point does the police force become an occupying force?" Granted, there's supposedly a failsafe (the Constitution) but as you say, the guy with the badge and the gun typically have carte blanche to do as they will with few repercussions.
goose wrote:There is nothing to be gained by swearing at a cop. Seriously. If the cop is doing something they shouldn't, you think swearing will stop them? ... In my limited experience with such issues, cops exercise substantial patience and control when faced with citizens that spew obscenities at them. .02
And yes, cussing at cops is almost always a good way to attract unwanted attention. If you haven't done anything wrong the cop will likely FIND something wrong. Most everybody commits a few crimes every day, even if it's just driving one mile an hour over the speed limit, jaywalking against the light, or spitting on the sidewalk. The fact that we have such stupid laws is another matter entirely...

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
Rench
the Harm in Harmony
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Rench » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:38 am

Just to riff on your thoughts there, the modern police, especially at the municipal level, ARE by definition an occupying force. They exist to enforce the majority-agreed-upon codes of the given town, which might range from jaywalking to fence color depending on where you live.

To take that to the idea that democracy allows 51% of the people to vote away the rights of the 49%, and there you have it. I can't do all kinds of things in the town I live in, by virtue of living there. If I did, I would be met by swift response from the local PD.

-Rench
"I'm not a schemer..."

"Do you know why it's illegal to put gasoline in a glass container?" - Piccinni

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Mon Nov 23, 2015 9:42 am

Rench wrote:Just to riff on your thoughts there, the modern police, especially at the municipal level, ARE by definition an occupying force. They exist to enforce the majority-agreed-upon codes of the given town, which might range from jaywalking to fence color depending on where you live.

To take that to the idea that democracy allows 51% of the people to vote away the rights of the 49%, and there you have it. I can't do all kinds of things in the town I live in, by virtue of living there. If I did, I would be met by swift response from the local PD.
As far as "occupying force," that term implies that the force has come in from elsewhere and is not part of the community (e.g., our invasion of Iraq).

Theoretically, cops should live in the communities/neighborhoods that they patrol. That way they have a vested interest in maintaining harmony. They are (supposed to be) civilians, not military.

The cops are clearly there to enforce the laws, but I still maintain the mentality has shifted in the past couple of decades (certainly since 9/11). There's always been a divide between "normal people" and cops, but it's grown much more pronounced. Nowadays I would hesitate telling my kids that if they have a problem they should find a cop -- and I'm a White guy in a nice neighborhood. I can't imagine what it'd be to be Black in the ghetto.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
guitargeek
Master Metric Necromancer
Location: East Goatfuck, Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by guitargeek » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:45 am

Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!
Elitist, arrogant, intolerant, self-absorbed.
Midliferider wrote:Wish I could wipe this shit off my shoes but it's everywhere I walk. Dang.
Pattio wrote:Never forget, as you enjoy the high road of tolerance, that it is those of us doing the hard work of intolerance who make it possible for you to shine.
xtian wrote:Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:58 am

guitargeek wrote:Stop right where you are! You know the score, pal. You're not cop, you're little people!
Bingo.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

12ci
Ayatollah of Mayhem
Location: Rive Gauche Anacostia

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by 12ci » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:08 am

Jaeger wrote: I'm told that policing in America has changed over the past several decades. I've watched the evolution since the late '80s and I know there was a shift after 9/11.
--Jaeger
i'm not so sure if things really changed after 9/11 or if they just became more obvious. i know that the "militarisation" of police, even in small towns like mine, started much longer ago. my little town (population ~ 25,000) has had an armoured vehicle and a SWAT team for 20 years or more.


not sure if this pic is really relevant to your question, but it shows how little some things have changed in 50+ years

Image
today you decide what tomorrow will bring

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:01 am

Heh, also pertinent from today's WaPo (and local to 12ci)...
WaPo wrote:A police officer who held a gun to a man’s head, apparently to impress his friends, was convicted Wednesday of first-degree assault and misconduct in office.

After Officer Jenchesky Santiago’s conviction, the Prince George’s County police chief condemned the officer’s actions and said he was recommending that the department fire him.

The police department also released a cellphone video of the May 2014 incident, which showed Santiago holding the gun close to the man’s forehead and shouting, “I dare you to [expletive] fight me, son.”

...

The encounter began when Cunningham’s cousin stopped at Cunningham’s Bowie home to drop him off. The men talked in the car briefly before Santiago pulled up beside them in a cruiser.

Alsobrooks said that Santiago repeatedly asked the men what they were doing there, even after they explained that Cunningham lived in the house.

Santiago told them they were parked illegally — which prosecutors said was not true — and Cunningham said he would get out of the car and go inside.

Alsobrooks said Santiago then backed up, parked his cruiser and ran to Cunningham at the door of his home, where Santiago pulled out his gun.

“I was shocked. At the instant he pointed the gun to my head, I was shocked,” Cunningham said. He said that he was so dumbfounded that he found it hard to move quickly, and at first he simply repeated what was happening to his cousin, who was still nearby .

...

In the video, Cunningham says, “He put a gun to my head. He put a gun to my head,” before freezing in place for a long moment with Santiago’s weapon in his face.

Witnesses, including Cunningham, told investigators that Santiago allegedly uttered a threat that was not caught on video. Alsobrooks said the threat was: “We’re PG police, and we shoot people.”
See LINK for video.

Quality. Real fuckin' quality. :roll:

At least Officer McFuckhead will be cooling his heels in prison for a while. I hope he enjoys that.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

12ci
Ayatollah of Mayhem
Location: Rive Gauche Anacostia

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by 12ci » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:16 am

not sure if this one belongs here...it sort of bridges a couple of topics

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... rally.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dramatic video from Donald Trump’s Radford, Virginia rally on Monday appears to show the moment a Secret Service agent allegedly grabbed a Time magazine photographer by the neck and threw him to the ground.

An award-winning photographer covering a Donald Trump rally on Monday was thrown to the ground during an altercation with a Secret Service agent.

The incident took place as black protesters waving their fists and chanting marched through the arena at Virginia's Radford University, while Trump supporters responded with boos.

According to a video posted on Twitter, the security officer told Time magazine photographer Christopher Morris to "get in the pen," referring to the designated area for photographers.

Morris responded with a curse. The security agent grabbed him by the neck and slammed him to the ground in a choke hold.
today you decide what tomorrow will bring

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:38 am

Yeah, saw that. Granted, that's the Secret Service, not Trump, but... I dunno how much control or influence he has on those guys or their rules of engagement.

Still pretty scary, tho, especially with Donnie talking about trying to change the libel and journalistic laws. Now THAT is some scary shit.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri May 20, 2016 10:21 am

Not quite "jackboots," but...

http://geekologie.com/2016/05/19/little ... pistol.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image
Geekologie wrote:Meet Dogo, a small 26-pound remote controlled tank robot that carries a 9mm Glock pistol inside. The tank is capable of climbing stairs and is outfitted with two-way audio communications so you can try to negotiate with your target before shooting and killing them. The gun can hold up to 14 rounds and is capable of remote-firing five rounds in two seconds with impressive accuracy due to the tank's ability to absorb recoil. I just added one to my Christmas list! Along with 'a really good lawyer.'
[media]https://youtu.be/CYMtX3E-Lgs[/media]

I find this equally cool and disturbing.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

Mk3
Captain Sensible, Space Command.
Location: The people's republic of Illinois Welcome comrade, join the party!

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Mk3 » Fri May 20, 2016 11:11 am

That opens a whole bucket load of questions. Here are a few:

-What is it's lead/response time to target movement?
-What is the repercussion to automatically blasting the thing? it's a robot, so shooting it on sight (assuming you're already in a standoff) seems the smart way to do business. Could the robot return fire based on being fired upon? There is no imminent threat to human life by firing on a robot, so how could it be justifiable to smoke somebody for shooting it? I would thereby expect the only viable citations then to be destruction of property and improper discharge of a firearm.
-How is a robot regulated when used against a home intruder? Can you consider your life in imminent danger if you (homeowner) are secure enough to fuck around, Macaulay Culkin style, with a goddamn RC car? Would that be like a booby trap (specifically illegal)?
- And in the realm of home defense, if this is legal, then I find an absolute need to take it to the logical extreme, and strap IEDs to bunnies making my own little home defense Jihadi fluff army! Get me a mote with ill-tempered sea bass!
- If you can get a robot close enough to shoot a suspect/assailant WHY IN THE FUCK wouldn't you make it non-lethal? Swarm war the bastards with accurate tazers or gas or both, fuck it's goddamn robot, fill it with airsoft and nitrous oxide, it'll be fucking hilarious.

This further illustrates to me a failing if its used by a domestic police force. I'd be morally squeamish using it in combat, but I can see the utility, and the goals of those two types of engagement SHOULD BE markedly different; the fucking burbs are not a combat zone. I want to break an ENEMY's will in order to impose my own; cops should be maintaining law and order, protecting and serving, and when necessary subduing SUSPECTS to detain them for the next step in the legal process.

In short I don't like the robot.
"...when someone asks you if you're a god, you say "YES "!

"UTMC, it's an international disorganization of racers, aficionados, mechanics, lunatics, and scumbags. It's like an online motorcycle Mos Eisley."

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri May 20, 2016 12:35 pm

Mk3 wrote:That opens a whole bucket load of questions. ...

This further illustrates to me a failing if its used by a domestic police force. I'd be morally squeamish using it in combat, but I can see the utility....

In short I don't like the robot.
Yeah, I immediately thought "How long will it be before we see these in the hands of SWAT teams?"

Your other points are excellent as well. Hadn't thought about some of those, honestly, but I think you're right across the board.

I find the technology fascinating and tremendously cool, but that's solidly in realm of moral ambiguity, and the potential for unintended consequences is astronomical. :shock:

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

12ci
Ayatollah of Mayhem
Location: Rive Gauche Anacostia

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by 12ci » Fri Jul 08, 2016 9:24 am

Jaeger wrote: Yeah, I immediately thought "How long will it be before we see these in the hands of SWAT teams?"
apparently not long at all-Dallas PD appear to have had no qualms at all...
today you decide what tomorrow will bring

Pattio
Centrifugal Savant of Two Wheel Transportation
Location: the Olde Wheelery

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Pattio » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:38 am

I'm a big fan of 'Battlebots', the fighting remote-control robot tv show. There are lots of rules involved, to make the fights both fair and entertaining, but you will always hear someone say, as Adam Carolla did on 'The Man Show' sixteen years ago, that his idea of a fighting robot would be a box from which emerges a midget with a shotgun. We have a situation in this instance where the police used what was available to them. Did they have a remote taser, a net, a sonic device, area-denying foam, or any other non-lethal options? I don't know. What they did have was a lethal explosive charge. There's no denying that lives were at stake, and there's no underestimating the risk that responding officers were facing. What options did they have? Powerful, non-lethal, technologically advanced options were not available to them, and a bad guy, and all the secrets and information that could have come from taking him alive, got splattered.
-Pattio-

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:58 am

12ci wrote:apparently not long at all-Dallas PD appear to have had no qualms at all...
Pattio wrote:...all the secrets and information that could have come from taking him alive, got splattered.
Jeez, let's see...

First, the sparks that caused all this, the needless and woefully inappropriate killing of two citizens. Both were male, both Black -- just like Travon Martin, Freddie Gray, etc.

I've watched enough of the video footage on these two new incidents to have a pretty clear -- and damning -- opinion on the cops' actions. While there was some "wiggle room" or ambiguity in most of the earlier incidents, these are pretty fucking straightforward. The cops in Baton Rouge just flat murdered that guy. It's all on film. From multiple angles.

So back to the original post... yeah, the cops in America have solidly moved into "jackbooted thugs" territory. Not all of them, to be sure, but there is something in the culture that really, REALLY needs to be addressed and fixed.

As far as the shit in Dallas... I'm surprised we haven't seen more of this. I expect we will. This will cause the cops to clamp down harder and become more militant, which is the WRONG thing to do. I hope they don't do that. If they do it will simply escalate further and... yeah, no.

At some point the po-po need to recognize that there are simply more of us than there are of them, and it would be foolish to try to pick a fight with the entire population of America. The whole "thin blue line, us against them" bullshit needs a reality check. Any citizen has just as might right to be here as the cops do, and they better damn well remember it.

And as for the robot? I don't know enough about what happened there to have much of an opinion, but if all you have is a hammer then that's what you use. Given the circumstances I can see where that'd be justified. Sounds like there wasn't much ambiguity that they got the right guy.

Still, we're heading into Robocop territory. I hope this isn't the opening of Pandora's Box. :(

--Jaeger

P.S. -- I just read THIS after writing the above. It's very, very pertinent. The math, the logic, and the realpolitik are indisputable, regardless of political orientation.
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
guitargeek
Master Metric Necromancer
Location: East Goatfuck, Oklahoma
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by guitargeek » Sat Jul 09, 2016 7:43 pm

If we tax rich people and corporations (which legally count as rich people), cops won't have to generate revenue by shaking down poor people.
Elitist, arrogant, intolerant, self-absorbed.
Midliferider wrote:Wish I could wipe this shit off my shoes but it's everywhere I walk. Dang.
Pattio wrote:Never forget, as you enjoy the high road of tolerance, that it is those of us doing the hard work of intolerance who make it possible for you to shine.
xtian wrote:Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 12:40 am

If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:04 am

DerGolgo wrote:This.
Oh, yeah, real fuckin' quality.

I honestly don't understand how some cops can apparently justify this sort've behavior to themselves. Hell, if she'd walked up and said "Fuck you, piggy pie" she'd be within her Constitutional rights. Instead, she gets a beatdown.

That's not self defense, that's a power trip.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 6:44 am

Jaeger wrote: That's not self defense, that's a power trip.

--Jaeger
And that's what it is.
A person who is given not just authority, but is told that they are the good guys, period, no discussion. When you remove the idea that they might do wrong from their mental toolbox.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:53 am

DerGolgo wrote: And that's what it is.
A person who is given not just authority, but is told that they are the good guys, period, no discussion. When you remove the idea that they might do wrong from their mental toolbox.
Yeeeeeeeah. It's important to have at least a little self doubt.

I gather cops are encouraged to "take command of the situation regardless of what's going on and figure out details later." That's not good. I understand the logic behind that mentality (go home at the end of their shift) but goddamnit we're not a war zone. This is America. Y'know, "land of the free, home of the brave" and all that?

Yes, being a cop is dangerous. That's part of the package. Don't like it? Don't do the job. However, behaving like a soldier in a war zone trying to "be safe" is entirely inappropriate.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:16 am

Jaeger wrote:I gather cops are encouraged to "take command of the situation regardless of what's going on and figure out details later."
That would be fine and dandy if taking command of a situation was not defined as delivering unstoppable force as the first and only measure.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:56 am

DerGolgo wrote:
Jaeger wrote:I gather cops are encouraged to "take command of the situation regardless of what's going on and figure out details later."
That would be fine and dandy if taking command of a situation was not defined as delivering unstoppable force as the first and only measure.
First, read THIS ARTICLE from The Atlantic. (It's short.)

To wit:
Prof. Steven Carter wrote: Law professors and lawyers instinctively shy away from considering the problem of law’s violence. Every law is violent. We try not to think about this, but we should. On the first day of law school, I tell my Contracts students never to argue for invoking the power of law except in a cause for which they are willing to kill. They are suitably astonished, and often annoyed. But I point out that even a breach of contract requires a judicial remedy; and if the breacher will not pay damages, the sheriff will sequester his house and goods; and if he resists the forced sale of his property, the sheriff might have to shoot him.
From a tactical standpoint, overwhelming force is always the way to go if you want to "win."

The problem is that "winning" is loosely defined. From an officer's personal perspective, winning is usually "do whatever it takes to go home at the end of your shift."

If you extend that mentality, the "safest" environment for a police officer is a citizenry of unarmed people, all of whom have cortex bombs that can be remotely detonated by police. Citizens must ask for permission to do anything lest they accidentally antagonize police officers. Keep everyone helpless and docile -- and kill them if they complain or fight back. That's a longstanding goal of many, many tyrannical regimes...

Needless to say, that ain't happening here and now, and if it did... :shock:

Police need to consider what sort of community they want to live in. If you're a Black cop with kids, presumably you're acutely aware of the disproportionate number of Black kids who get shot. Maybe reforming your police department so that's not quite so common is a good idea? Note that very often, police don't live in the communities in which they work.

Police need to accept that they will never be "safe" any more than the usual civilians are. In fact, less so since they're charged with heading toward the sound of gunfire, not away from it. Sucks for them.

Combine this combative mentality with the need to generate revenue and you have a recipe for some serious shit. (See above Atlantic article.)

Edit: Also, THIS. I mean, for fuckssakes, d'ya think that the folks in Baton Rouge have reason to be pissed off and protest? And so how do the cops behave?

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
Rench
the Harm in Harmony
Location: Chicago
Contact:

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Rench » Mon Jul 11, 2016 7:12 pm

DerGolgo wrote:This.
So watching this brought an interesting wave of cognitive dissonance.

Not to go all chivalric, but fucking hell, some woman taking a beat down makes me want to get in there and do the right thing. But then I would be taking the beat down, under something like "interfering in the performance of duties". But I have to wonder if you could defend yourself in court with the idea that they were not performing their duties at all, they were acting grossly outside their scope and battering someone for no reason, or at least no legal reason.

And what about escalation? Could a ccw holder, or the resident of the lawn they were on legally hold them under gun until a sergeant or similar arrived? More likely, he'd just get blown away of course, but in Illinois here, there's actually an amnesty if the firearm is used to stop the commission of a felony. 2 guys beating a woman on my front lawn sounds felonious to me...

-Rench
"I'm not a schemer..."

"Do you know why it's illegal to put gasoline in a glass container?" - Piccinni

Post Reply