LOGIN ISSUES
Because I've presently got technical incompetences with the board, password resets presently do not work automatic like.
If you can't login, click here please.
Show
If you have any problem logging in, please don't bother waiting and get in touch. Email right to the usual address (admin at...), use the contact form (bottom of index and most other pages), post in the Midget Circus, or message me directly on Facebook.
I should get the message within a few hours, but under rare circumstances, it might take me a day.

If you can login no problem, but you wish to avoid problem, try checking the "Remember Me" box where you login. I've meddled with the settings there, so even if you return here only once every couple of weeks, it should remember you fine. Provided you have cookies enabled.

If it won't remember you, and you want to be sure any failure to remember is actually such and not just an oops, please read the following (click the bar to make it "show").
Important infos about cookies
Show
To be remembered, you must have cookies enabled in your browser. Some people prefer using "private" browsing mode - which precludes cookies being placed on your device in the first place.
Some people use regular browsing mode, but may have chosen to disable all cookies in their settings. Sometimes, these people will end up tearing their hair out because a lot of websites just don't work at all, like many online stores, as many e-commerce platforms don't do bugger all without using cookies.
Me, I've got "Self-Destructing Cookies" plugins in my various browsers. Which lets me accept all cookies everywhere, smug in the knowledge that they will be deleted the instant I close that browser tab. I can even set it to delete the cookies only when I close the whole browser window, which is helpful with online stores.
And I can whitelist sites like the board, so the plugin doesn't mess with those cookies at all.

And you must use the same browser, on the same machine. Unless you're using something like a cookie manager that syncs to all your devices and things, your apple browser on your ipad won't have the delicious cookies chrome has on your PC. And unless google now manages cookies between your devices (who knows what the fuck they do), even chrome on your Android won't have the same cookies as chrome on your notebook, or chrome on your other Android.
If you wish to discuss this, follow this link.

SECURITY WHATNOW?
Once upon a when, we've had a data breach (maybe).
Click here if you don't know what that's about.
Show
If you've visited the forum at any time after November 18, 2020, you will have seen the message about a supposed data breach that may have exposed passwords. I know you will have seen it because, until today, there was a big general announcement right at the top of the everything.
Seeing how it's been nearly 18 months since that, with no further alarms getting rung, and how everyone has had 758,214 opportunities to take a minute to think about the security of their passwords, I've taken that notice down.
Follow this link for all the info that has transpired about the whole mess.

You may dismiss this message by clicking the dark X in the top right hand corner. You may have to mouse-over to see it. I assure you it's there.

eBike obsessed!

Articles, Essays, Reviews, Road Diaries, and your chance go Gonzo with your own weekly column. Be sure to read the FAQ before posting an article.
User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:11 am

The thought hath occurred.
The blind and visually impaired are often trotted out as an argument why electric vehicles are inherently badevil. Like wind-turbines exist exclusively to wipe out all birds, electric vehicles do absolutely nothing except murderkill the likes of myself.

Quite besides how people with perfect vision are equally affected when they focus their perfect vision on their phone to find the next track to listen to on their noise-cancelling earbuds.

I don't enjoy being trotted out for something that would be relatively simple to fix, so. Allow me to suggest something perhaps worth testing, in the name of road safety.

Setup: a speaker, preferably one that projects sound mostly forward in a Cone Of Unsilence. A playback device and amplifier hooked up to said speaker, and to the bike's electron brains.
The speaker will play back a sound, preferably one in a frequency range that will manifest the most evident doppler shift, most evident to human perception that is.
And that sound should be MUST BE something like this:

Also, while searching for that, I found this other thing, and I just gotta pass it on.
Show


If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:53 am

Haha! That's a good one.

I've been dreaming up a way to implement this, but I've always wanted to use this style:



I believe many places are already legislating that EVs make sounds at slow, parking lot speeds. Unfortunately, you know they won't do it with any whimsy. It'll just be some annoying shhhh shhhh or beep beep noise ☹️

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:38 am

problemaddict wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:53 am
I've been dreaming up a way to implement this, but I've always wanted to use this style:
Ha, that one is good!
problemaddict wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:53 am
I believe many places are already legislating that EVs make sounds at slow, parking lot speeds. Unfortunately, you know they won't do it with any whimsy. It'll just be some annoying shhhh shhhh or beep beep noise ☹️
Hopefully, they will only legislate that there must be a distinct warning tone.
While manufacturers won't with the whimsy - people started hacking their Teslas about five minutes after the first one rolled off of a showroom floor.

Or, speaking of Tesla. If anyone would offer it as an option (option in the settings menu, not a "pay extra" option), it would be Musk, wouldn't it. If he does, well. It's a free market. Other luxury brands probably wouldn't go near it. But something like a two-seat "urban" vehicle. The kind that are already designed and marketed to be "cute" and, indeed, whimsical.
Someone is gonna (I hope).

And it would be perfect. For one, it fits a vehicle moving at speed - which is the kind of vehicle where impact with a pedestrian might maim or kill that pedestrian. Particularly with those ever smaller cars where there is no big, soft (in recent models) bonnet/hood between the front bumper and the big, hard, skull-cracking windscreen. A car moving at parking lot speeds can stop pretty much as quick as the driver can stomp the right pedal. Plus, the very modern sensor-suite on nice cars can recognize the impending impact with a pedestrian and stop the vehicle on the spot.

On top of which, a standardized beep sound would just be confusing as heck and make life more difficult for people like me. When I have to cross a grocery store parking lot, and a half dozen cars are simultaneously driving around it - and they all make the same beeping sound. Ehm. No.

No idea what score would go best with parking-lot speeds. I think music might actually be a good idea there. Not necessarily a proper performance, not Metallica or Miley Cirus. More like one of a few dozen midi tunes. And because everyone is gonna be online anyway, if not on the internet than on a local data-link sort of affair, all the vehicles within so and so many meters, or on the same parking lot, can negotiate who plays what tune. None with the confusion.

At speed, meanwhile. It's gotta be unmistakable, just like the various aspiration, wind, and tire noises of an internal-combustion vehicle are unmistakable.
The BRRP-BRRP made by humans would be far better suited than replaying engine noises.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:00 am


User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:55 pm

Some Russian mad scientists have dropped a Nissan Leaf motor in a Triumph frame!


Screenshot_20211103-204709.png


That would be 110kw of power (147 freedom horses) but the bike weighs about 600lbs.

This is exciting to me because I am really interested in the possibilities of junkyard EV builds. I can't wait to get more details on this bike!
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:36 am

Sure this is a motorcycle, as in motor-bicycle, and not a motor-unicycle that also happens to have a front wheel just for parking?

A sudden googles tells me a Nissan Leaf gets 320 Nm (236 lb⋅ft). From something like no RPM.
The current model Triumph Rocket 3 has 221 Nm (163 lb⋅ft), and it's gotta spin up to 4,000rpm. For a 291 kg (641.5 lb) bike.

Just numerically. That's 1.5 times the torque/weight of a Rocket 3. In the wheelbase of what looks like a Speed Triple or similar.
And that's 1.5 times the max-torque of the Rocket 3 - and not just in a certain rpm range. But all the time and also always, any time that motor spins. :shock:

When you are further researching this missile, @problemaddict, please keep an eye out for any mention of "traction control", or just an anti-wheely device. That motor and what I assume is the battery pack look pretty big. But 1.5 times the torque of a Rocket 3, with the masses of drivetrain, "fuel" (batteries), and rider much closer to the rear wheel. Not nearly the leverage that the masses of the Rocket 3 have in relation to the rear wheel, so not nearly as much torque required to make the lot rotate around the rear wheel and just lift up. Not like a bird, nor even like a Rocket, nor a Rocket (3). But more like an AA shell...
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Jaeger » Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:22 am

DerGolgo wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 4:36 am
Sure this is a motorcycle, as in motor-bicycle, and not a motor-unicycle that also happens to have a front wheel just for parking?

A sudden googles tells me a Nissan Leaf gets 320 Nm (236 lb⋅ft). From something like no RPM.
The current model Triumph Rocket 3 has 221 Nm (163 lb⋅ft), and it's gotta spin up to 4,000rpm. For a 291 kg (641.5 lb) bike.

Just numerically. That's 1.5 times the torque/weight of a Rocket 3. In the wheelbase of what looks like a Speed Triple or similar.
And that's 1.5 times the max-torque of the Rocket 3 - and not just in a certain rpm range. But all the time and also always, any time that motor spins. :shock:

When you are further researching this missile, @problemaddict, please keep an eye out for any mention of "traction control", or just an anti-wheely device. That motor and what I assume is the battery pack look pretty big. But 1.5 times the torque of a Rocket 3, with the masses of drivetrain, "fuel" (batteries), and rider much closer to the rear wheel. Not nearly the leverage that the masses of the Rocket 3 have in relation to the rear wheel, so not nearly as much torque required to make the lot rotate around the rear wheel and just lift up. Not like a bird, nor even like a Rocket, nor a Rocket (3). But more like an AA shell...
Yeah, based on the first iterations of your homebrew e-Bikes... doing that with a full-size motorcycle would go very poorly. :shock:

Still... I'd at least want to try riding it... :mrgreen:

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:38 pm

Alta is back? Well, no, but a very similarly spec'd bike is coming real soon:

The Stark Varg (means Strong Wolf). This doesn't seem to be the typical vaporware media hype, but we'll see. Claims are 80 horsepower and 6 hrs of "trail riding". I"m gonna call some bullshit there. The 80hp number is probably a burst-power figure. Like 10 seconds then the power drops back down to 55hp or whatever. And the "trail riding" for 6hrs is probably at a 20mph pace. I'll be interested to see the real-world tests and instrumented tests.


User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:56 am


User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:48 pm


User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:39 am

problemaddict wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:48 pm
Triumph electric on the horizon:
...they must. MUST. Offer a version in 70s-ish colors, call it the Lucas's Apology.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:50 am

DerGolgo wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:39 am
...they must. MUST. Offer a version in 70s-ish colors, call it the Lucas's Apology.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

User avatar
Bigshankhank
Fully Autonomous Cock-Puncher
Location: Exiled to Living in a Van Down By The River
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Bigshankhank » Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:52 pm

DerGolgo wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:39 am
problemaddict wrote:
Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:48 pm
Triumph electric on the horizon:
...they must. MUST. Offer a version in 70s-ish colors, call it the Lucas's Apology.
I would also accept the Prince of Darkness model as an acknowledgment of the history of, well darkness.
It's time for Humankind to ditch the imaginary friends of our species' childhood and grow the fuck up.
-Davros

"Lasse mich deine Seele dem Herrscher der Finsternis opfern"

Let me sacrifice your soul to the ruler of darkness

Always carry a bottle of whiskey when you travel in case of a snakebite. Futhermore, always carry a small snake.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Jaeger » Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:18 am

Ooh. :shock:
CYCLEWORLD wrote:Indian eFTR Hooligan 1.2 Electric Bicycle Unveiled
Indian and Super73 launch 28-mph ebike with 75-mile range.
By Ron Lieback
March 4, 2022
Following the success of its eFTR Mini and eFTR Jr electric bikes for kids, Indian Motorcycle is at the wattage game once again, this time for adults. The Spirit Lake, Iowa-based company has partnered with the “American lifestyle adventure brand” Super73 to launch the eFTR Hooligan 1.2 electric bicycle.

The eFTR Hooligan 1.2 is based on the Super73-S2 platform and features a removable 960Wh battery that resembles an FTR gas tank, inverted fork, moto-style handlebars, an LED headlight, and an FTR 1200 Rally-influenced windscreen. ...

... The eFTR Hooligan 1.2 is capable of 28 mph and can get up to 75 miles with pedal assist. (Indian Motorcycle)

...
Image

LINK TO STORY HERE: https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/ ... -unveiled/

I REEEEEEALLY want to get my hands on something like that.

PA, how fast did you say you GPS'ed your home-brews? IIRC it was significantly more than 28mph, though I don't know if I'd ever want or need more than that on a bicycle anyway.

I admit, I didn't really have Super73 on my radar before, but they have some spiffy stuff.

Not sure I'm ready to drop $4K on it so it says "Indian" on the side, but I'd at least consider one of the other Super73 bikes -- or something like it. Still biding my time to see what's on the market. (Though with the price of gasoline right now? GYAT DAYUM electric sounds good.)

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am

So, removable battery. That's nice. Take it inside for charging, very convenient for people living in an apartment building or such, where they wouldn't have access to charging where they park their vehicle. Hope they are awake enough to put something like a carrying sling on the tank, or loops where one such might be attached.

On the other hand. Knobbly tires?! No fenders?!
That's... concerning.
If I follow that link, will there be pictures where some guy with a beard and man-bun uses an angle grinder to throw sparks just for the heck of throwing sparks?
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Jaeger » Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:29 am

DerGolgo wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:18 am
...
If I follow that link, will there be pictures where some guy with a beard and man-bun uses an angle grinder to throw sparks just for the heck of throwing sparks?
Not specifically that, but it's certainly their audience. The Super73 marketing department is definitely going for the young-and-hip crowd, tho. :mrgreen:

I just want there to be dealerships where I can, ya know, TEST RIDE some of these things? I expect the Indian bike will show up in dealerships, but my closest Super73 dealer is outside Richmond -- and the next closest is in NYC. :L

Anyway, I'm just bitching, really. I'm sure it's just a matter of time before we get more regular retail outlets, especially given the way gas prices are going. If you're an urbanite or semi-urbanite like me, this is just about the perfect transportation.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Wed Mar 09, 2022 6:14 am

Jaeger wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:29 am
my closest Super73 dealer is outside Richmond -- and the next closest is in NYC. :L
...you say that like it's a bad thing. If you wanna test-ride a bike, you'd have to go there by bike, wouldn't you? I mean, just for symmetry?
Jaeger wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:29 am
If you're an urbanite or semi-urbanite like me, this is just about the perfect transportation.

--Jaeger
And here you have an economical justification, too!
A one time expenditure on go-juice, while you still can without showing the highway patrol post outside the Sheets your ration cards. Check out the electrical alternative early, before they come with a multi-year waiting list.
I wanna adapt the "buy the best and cry only once" thing, and I'm stuck.
But you get the picture. The expenditure in time and money, one time, is the economic, the responsible thing to do!
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Wed Mar 16, 2022 6:27 pm

Super73 definitely appears to be Up To Some Shit.

75mph Grom-sized-object?
https://jalopnik.com/super73s-new-c1x-c ... 1848657787

Image

I don't have much of an opinion on them, sorry to say. I've never ridden one or seen one in person. They are solidly going for the sell-the-lifestyle-not-the-product image, (they have a Roland Sands Designs model) but the fact that they're still around after several years shows that they're not complete bullshit.

*meaningfully stares off into the distance*
Image

However, $4000 for that little thing is insane. You'll notice it has no rear suspension at that price. I've heard some stirrings of quality issues w/ Super73, but honestly haven't followed up with any of it. Check Endless-sphere.com for some user's opinions.



Juiced Ebikes, for example, sells several fun-haver/commuter bikes that are similar in style and substance to the Super73 stuff, at almost half price. They have been equally as favorably reviewed, but they lack the celebrity endorsements.... But check the variety of their offerings. Most below $2000:
https://www.juicedbikes.com/collections ... ual&page=1
RipRacer-Blue-RightSide_1000x666_crop_center.jpg


Oh, and the Onyx RCR, with a 60mph top speed, makes probably 3 times the power of the Super73 and is only $500 more.
https://www.onyxmotorbikes.com/products ... 8928111716
the-rcr-e-bike-from-onyx-motor-bikes-feeds-you-motorcycle-like-speed-and-power_6.jpg


And as for the speed of my DIY builds, my BMX went 58mph and my mountain bike built for the trails, not for speed, will do about 35mph.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:51 am

How about a 1929 Indian conversion?


User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Thu Apr 14, 2022 7:50 am

Interested to see where this goes and I'm wondering what the race format will be. Will they swap batteries or whole bikes?

I also like the requirement for each team to include a woman rider.

https://www.rideapart.com/news/518743/f ... world-cup/

https://www.rideapart.com/news/578805/f ... istration/

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Jaeger » Mon Apr 18, 2022 9:17 am

Y'all see this?

Silver Ant: Hookie Co.’s Cake Ösa electric drag racer

Image

https://www.bikeexif.com/custom-cake-osa-hookie

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:39 am

That is really fantastic! They nailed the aesthetic. I'm confused about the scale. They mention they kept the 14" wheels. Which means that must be a *tiny* human riding it in those pics ...

Anyway, fucking cool. And I hadn't seen it before.

I also saw a converted Duc Diavel w\ an Energica drivetrain, yesterday. I'll have to find a link and post it up.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Jaeger » Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:14 pm

problemaddict wrote:
Tue Apr 19, 2022 3:39 am
That is really fantastic! They nailed the aesthetic. I'm confused about the scale. They mention they kept the 14" wheels. Which means that must be a *tiny* human riding it in those pics ...

Anyway, fucking cool. And I hadn't seen it before.

I also saw a converted Duc Diavel w\ an Energica drivetrain, yesterday. I'll have to find a link and post it up.
Yeah this looks really interesting: https://hookie.co/portfolio/ant-cake-osa/

There's another e-bike maker I'm seeing around here but I cant' recall the name -- they're obviously built for cargo and functionality not looks, and I want one but the maker isnt' clear.

Ebikes really are the future, y'all.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:28 am

Jaeger wrote:
Wed Apr 20, 2022 6:14 pm
There's another e-bike maker I'm seeing around here but I cant' recall the name -- they're obviously built for cargo and functionality not looks, and I want one but the maker isnt' clear.
Yuba? Euro built, been in the game a long time. Very expensive.

Or Rad Power's Radwagon? Chinese bikes with pretty established USA company specs. Much cheaper...

Those are the most likely suspects.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Jaeger » Mon Apr 25, 2022 10:55 am

problemaddict wrote:
Sat Apr 23, 2022 9:28 am
Or Rad Power's Radwagon? Chinese bikes with pretty established USA company specs. Much cheaper...
Yeah, that's the one I saw on the street the other day. Those things look jangleplatz! I'm sure they won't win many races, but they look like they could haul a decent load of groceries, which is really what I need. I wanna get my hands on one for a test drive to see how they handle.

I don't think I've seen any Yubas yet but I'm sure it's just a matter of time given the neighborhood. I'll keep an eye out.

There's a Capital Bike Share station at the top of my neighborhood and the new Metro is opening soon (in theory) so I'm properly in the DC Metro now. :shock:

Time to plan and behave accordingly. :D

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Fri May 13, 2022 6:58 am

Newest Livewire. Looks pretty good! Decent Zero competitor:

https://www.advrider.com/livewire-revea ... 05-12-2022

Image

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Fri May 13, 2022 12:22 pm

Question.

I recall, long long ago, reading about wheel-hub motors not just motoring, but replacing conventional brakes. And not just by switching the various coils from a motoring arrangement to a generating circuit thing.
I'm probably imagining things, but some clever short-circuiting of electric windings would have, I don't know. Stared the kinetic energy to death with unveiled contempt?

I wonder what, if anything came of that. If one was to accept a brake not fixed to the wheel, but with a fallible secondary in between, marginally less reliable than inboard brakes that never really did catch on with cages.

Having a wheel-hub motor that can brake as good as, well, a brake, but without the additional weight sounds interesting, does it not?
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

User avatar
Jaeger
Baron von Scrapple
Location: NoVA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by Jaeger » Sat May 14, 2022 2:16 pm

I saw my first LiveWire on the road yesterday -- corner of Baron Cameron and Wiehle Ave in Reston, VA.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

User avatar
problemaddict
Captain of the UTMC Fighter Squadron
Location: hatfield, PA
Contact:

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by problemaddict » Sat May 14, 2022 8:39 pm

DerGolgo wrote:
Fri May 13, 2022 12:22 pm
Question.

I recall, long long ago, reading about wheel-hub motors not just motoring, but replacing conventional brakes.
I've heard grumblings of this sort as well, but never anything past the possibly/maybe/in-the-future sort of way. It's currently in use (mostly) with "one pedal driving" modes in cars. But the traditional brakes are still there for aggressive or panic-stop situations.

I'm not really sure of the physics involved with trying to replicate a panic stop using only regen braking. I guess, theoretically, the motor system would be able to brake with as much force/power as the motor is capable as outputting?
And you wouldn't need hub motors to do this. Whatever motor is coupled to the tires, would be able to do the braking, as long as there's no clutch in the system.

I know I had read something recently about this. I think this is the article, but it's devoid of much technical info:

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/11 ... s-entirely

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: eBike obsessed!

Post by DerGolgo » Sun May 15, 2022 6:41 am

problemaddict wrote:
Sat May 14, 2022 8:39 pm
I've heard grumblings of this sort as well, but never anything past the possibly/maybe/in-the-future sort of way. It's currently in use (mostly) with "one pedal driving" modes in cars. But the traditional brakes are still there for aggressive or panic-stop situations.

I'm not really sure of the physics involved with trying to replicate a panic stop using only regen braking. I guess, theoretically, the motor system would be able to brake with as much force/power as the motor is capable as outputting?
And you wouldn't need hub motors to do this. Whatever motor is coupled to the tires, would be able to do the braking, as long as there's no clutch in the system.
Yeah. Thinking about it, it's not that brilliant of an idea.
What had appealed to me was simplicity, and efficient use of space. Wheel hub motors would free up a great deal of space in a cage's volume, or in a bike, and if they could brake, too, no need for the big, lumpen discs - and no need for complex brake lines, brake fluid, master cylinders, etc.
Just do it all with a bit of wire and power-transistors, I thought. WAY less maintenance (fine, modern brakes aren't exactly maintenance intensive - but even to "very little", the good old "none" is a massive reduction), and critically, way, way fewer points of failure.
Brakes are a must work item, which makes them expensive to manufacture. Tight tolerances, quality materials (even cast iron discs must be made from quality cast iron), lots of quality control.
Sure, all of that applies to motors, too. But it already applies to motors. I was hoping to get a twofer, y'know?

And the physics isn't promising, either.

A braking system has horsepower like an engine or motor, basically - energy is converted from one form to another. Deceleration is, in terms of physics, just acceleration. Stopping an arbitrary vehicle traveling speed x in stopping distance y takes just the same amount of power (well, marginally less, because friction helps out with the stopping) as it would take to accelerate the same vehicle to speed x in distance y.
Apparently, US law seems to require that a car traveling 60 mph, not counting distance traveled during driver's reaction time, just by the performance from the brakes, must stop within 88 feet.

A Chevrolet Corvette Stingray goes from 0 to 60 mph in 3.4 seconds. With the help of these here calculators, I have mathed that this Corvette covers a distance of 148.7 feet when performing that acceleration.
In physics terms, when accelerating from 60 to 0, a Chevrolet Spark, which is apparently the cheapest new car available in the US right now, will need about as much power as a Corvette Stingray can squeeze from its engine. Yeah, the Spark is about ~37% lighter than the 'vette. But that required stopping distance is ~41% shorter than the 'vette's acceleration distance. Kinetic energy scales to the square of the velocity, but is linear in relation to mass, so the comparison is not potatoes and pears.
I'm not gonna math the whole mass/energy mess right now, but the Spark's brakes will have to deliver more power than the engine of the finest Corvette does. That 3.4 second Stingray comes out of the box with 490 hp.

I'm not sure how the generative power that a motor/generator can pull out of the spinning wheel relates to the motor power it can put in. But I'm willing to bet that putting in a Spark something that can regen 490 hp would be, how shall I put it... murder?
Glorious if a speed-freak builds the ultimate sleeper, sure. But for the single-mom who drives her kid to kindergarten and then has to shuttle between her three jobs? Yeah...

Just limit the motor power, but keep massive regen?
Who'll pay for what, four-odd times the regen power, but not get four-odd times the motor power?
Even if such monstrosity was put in a Spark. I'm not seeing a lot of people willing to shell out for something so terrifying.

I had been thinking less of regenerative braking, though. I had been more wondering about actively switching the motor coils to act >against< the stator coils/stator magnet(s). Not withdrawing energy, but putting in energy to take out what's already there.
Now that I'm further thinking about it... yeah, that wheel hub motor? It would just boil, wouldn't it.
And I don't mean heat up to where water boils.
I mean turn into liquid metal that proceeds to instantly boil off into metal gas.

Regen braking may add more braking power at no great cost, may result in massively shortened stopping distances, to go with the superfast computer reactions of self-driving vehicles.
But no matter how I now shake it in my head, no matter how appealing it may be to eliminate traditional braking systems with their many shortcomings. The physics just disagrees.

As for eliminating all that brake dust.
I am sure that, within a decade or two, humans driving manually will be a strange and terrifying sight, rare outliers.
As those black-boxes some insurance companies offer or already put in fleet vehicles may make catastrophic accidents more likely, because they reward only gentle braking, training drivers to never stomp the brake, self-driving cars or just advanced driver-assist systems (that may also be rewarded by insurers) will make it rare to ever grind the pads on that disc. They will look ahead and except in exceptional circumstances, the regenerative braking will, in fact, do most of the heavy liftistopping.

Then there are things like Porsche's tungsten-carbide coated brake discs that are supposed to massively reduce brake dust. What with dust coming from the rotor, and this rotor wearing barely at all while giving (so Porsche claim) 30% more life than cast iron. I'm sure there are yet more technological solutions for that.
Maybe enclosed discs, like Honda offered on some bikes many decades ago, with some mechanism to collect the dust.
Once combustion vehicles have finally been eliminated from cities, that may be the next emission that will be regulated. Which I can't really disagree with much.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

Post Reply