here's something everybody should watch

Guder · Post by **Guder** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:47 am

I have to press [2] for english with my bank, or [3] for spanish, [4] for french. A few years ago, I remember not having to press anything for english... you just had to wait while it waited for you to not press something for spanish. I prefer the affirmative to the passive. That simply distinction is at the core of the problem. A generation or two has decided they are entitled to a position of global economic dominance without having to earn it. We've eroded a great deal of that capital while others have been shouldering in with aggression. Competition has gotten tougher, and we must exceed or decay. Fairness is irrelevant.

When I call our company office in Mexico, you have to press [1] for english... does that count?

monstergirl · Post by **monstergirl** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:09 pm

guitargeek wrote:Just so we're all clear on this... America does not have an official language any more than it has an official religion.

Is that why I get a fully paid holiday on December 25th?
I so wish what you said was true.

Urban Terrorist · Post by **Urban Terrorist** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:06 am

dragoth wrote:All I wish is that they'd tip me when I deliver pizza to them.

What do you ride to deilver pizzas over there? Over here we have to ride crappy mopeds, I did it few years ago, I was a pizza hut suicide pilot!!!

Like these ones in spain:

http://www.jamesandlaurie.com/Gallery/S ... livery.jpg

Always reckoned they should have given us these:

http://www.batmotorcycles.com/media/30385.jpg

Did it on a VFR750 once, fastest ever pizz delivery around here, shame it looked like a road traffic accident victim when they got it!!!

Ames · Post by **Ames** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:40 am

Start a new marketing plan, "Your pizza in fifteen minutes, pre-blenderized, or it's free!"

grenadier88 · Post by **grenadier88** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:02 am

I'm totally down with hyphens...Likewise, I have no problem with anybody who shares their allegiance with another land.

I have friends who are WHITE South Africans, another WHITE African friend who was born in Nigeria. Do you have an issue with him using African-American? Black Americans, who were born in the States, do. Why? They aren't Africans, they're Americans.

Do you have a problem with foreign-born or native-born people who live in the U.S. and sided with the Nazis during WWII? Or what about Arabs, Asians and North Africans who subscribe to radical Islam and live in the U.S.? Do you see ANY conflict of interest at all?

Rabbit_Fighter · Post by **Rabbit_Fighter** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:35 pm

grenadier88 wrote:
I'm totally down with hyphens...Likewise, I have no problem with anybody who shares their allegiance with another land.
I have friends who are WHITE South Africans, another WHITE African friend who was born in Nigeria. Do you have an issue with him using African-American? Black Americans, who were born in the States, do. Why? They aren't Africans, they're Americans.

Do you have a problem with foreign-born or native-born people who live in the U.S. and sided with the Nazis during WWII? Or what about Arabs, Asians and North Africans who subscribe to radical Islam and live in the U.S.? Do you see ANY conflict of interest at all?

Do I have problems with Nazis? Indeed.
Do I have problems with Radical Islam? Absolutely.

Yes, there is a conflict of interest, but it isn't due to a hyphen;nor is it due to shared cultural allegiance. It is due to conflicting ideologies. I don't think Irish-Americans have any trouble feeling an allegiance to Ireland, nor do I believe that it hinders their ability to be "fully American" (whatever that ultimately means).

I have a white brother who grew up in Zimbabwe and South Africa, is a United States citizen, and spent a good chunk of his adult life living in France. He doesn't know what the fuck to call himself, as he doesn't really feel like he identifies with any national culture. If he wanted to call himself an African-American, I would not take any fundamental issue with it, other than the confusion it could potentially cause.

How about Indians? You mean, Native Americans, or people from India? Well let's call them "East Indians" . . . .but what if they are from Mumbai which is on the west coast of India? That kind of makes them West Indian, but we don't want to confuse them with people from the West Indies.

I'm not saying that hyphens are the coolest thing in the world, but I do think they can come in handy now and then.

12ci · Post by **12ci** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:49 pm

Rabbit_Fighter wrote: people from India? Well let's call them "East Indians" . ..

the usual term is "south asian".
applies to pakis, too.

piccini9 · Post by **piccini9** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:49 pm

East Indian south Asian from the northwest near Pakistan would be called what exactly?

Caliann · Post by **Caliann** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:28 pm

piccini9 wrote:East Indian south Asian from the northwest near Pakistan would be called what exactly?

Human.

Urban Terrorist · Post by **Urban Terrorist** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:12 am

This is an arguement that'll keep going and going

Way I see it, if you are a biker, not a rub or wannabe, but a biker, your ok, everyone else can bugger off regardless of colour race, etc. Except the french, cos us engliah hate the bleeding french

Post by **Beemer Dan** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:08 am

Wow, I guess I missed this thread the first time around. I do think there is a big difference between being "politically correct" and socially minded. Even though the base ideas behind both are very similar, it's the methods that cause the conflict. Although I don't think people should feel the need to act differently towards others for fear that they might offend them, they should take every step to behave respectfully, sincerely and treat others as they would like to be treated. Discrimination is not a bad thing when applied to individuals on the merits of their behavior. To discriminate against an entire group on assumptions however, is a problem. "Political correctness" is often the opposite of discrimination, which is actually a disservice to all, as it does nothing to encourage good behavior nor does it discourage bad behavior. Treat people as people until they give you valid reasons to feel one way or the other about them.

Different people have different cultures, and it varies as much from region to region as it does from race to religion. If the differences in people bothers you then you can find a spot of like minded people and dig in. Conversely, if you like the idea that people are different you can do the opposite.

The real problem with "political correctness" is that those who don't give a fuck still don't give a fuck, and some even rally against it. "Political correctness" doesn't educate people about anything, it simply gives them extremely vague rules and often causes more discomfort for all sides. The only way we can all learn to live together is by actually doing so, not by attempting to follow etiquette founded on reverse engineered cultural ideas that are constantly moving targets.

leftlaneguy wrote:Oh, and I'm sorry that somebody got thier frilly-man-panties all in a wad over somebody else saying the word "gay"... Fuckin' pansies is all you are, if a *word* can get all in your face... Grow another layer of skin, and think REAL HARD about why a *WORD* spoken in/out of context 'hurts' *YOU* so much....

Words have power as well as meaning, and to strip that away only leaves society as a mass of uneducated, unenlightened and illiterate animals. You can call me a pansy for that if you like, you can even call me a liberal elite, or a kike, or the descendant of sand niggers. It's your free speech and it's your right to speak your mind. It is however, your responsibility to represent yourself as the the kind of person you would like to be treated as. You are your own ambassador, and if you behave in ways that cast aside whatever stereotypes or negative preconceptions others may have about you, then are much more likely to get a favorable response. Conversely, if your behavior falls in line with the worst of what people expect then you are relinquishing all aspects of individuality and become part of whatever "group" they have labeled you for.

Bottom line, people can say whatever they want and others have the equal right and capacity to respond in whatever way they feel justified. The only person who is weak or doesn't have thick enough skin is the one that sits back and doesn't speak their mind.

leftlaneguy · Post by **leftlaneguy** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:21 pm

Beemer Dan wrote:Words have power as well as meaning, and to strip that away only leaves society as a mass of uneducated, unenlightened and illiterate animals. You can call me a pansy for that if you like, you can even call me a liberal elite, or a kike, or the descendant of sand niggers. It's your free speech and it's your right to speak your mind. It is however, your responsibility to represent yourself as the the kind of person you would like to be treated as. You are your own ambassador, and if you behave in ways that cast aside whatever stereotypes or negative preconceptions others may have about you, then are much more likely to get a favorable response. Conversely, if your behavior falls in line with the worst of what people expect then you are relinquishing all aspects of individuality and become part of whatever "group" they have labeled you for.

Bottom line, people can say whatever they want and others have the equal right and capacity to respond in whatever way they feel justified. The only person who is weak or doesn't have thick enough skin is the one that sits back and doesn't speak their mind.

Thank you, you've represented it well...

My point is this: If a (bad) word is spoken NOT DIRECTLY to you personally, it should have no effect... Not really... It may offend you on some level, and that's your perrogative, BUT it's nothing to impose on EVERYONE else around you. If said word is DIRECTED at YOU, personally, then by all means, feel free to be offended, and FUCKING SAY SO. But again, if it's SO DAMN OFFENSIVE.... Why? What's the REASON?? Is it because someone else said so? Is it because it's TRUE?

It's this whole 'walking on eggshells' thing that has gotten out of control...

Excuse me while I give an example:

A guy I used to work with was a good employee, for the most part. Showed up, did his job, got along with others, told off-colour jokes... You know, Joe Average Co-Worker...

Then things went to shit... He started showing up late, high, not doing his job... Etc.

No-one really knew why, but his performance slacked off as a result. Ended up being let go. He got mad, and complained... but he was given good reasons. Shit happens. Nothing came of it. Aside from blowing his brains out 6 months later...

Now, same job, different guy. Was lack-luster to begin with. Didn't have any responsibilities, just had to do basic shit... Well, he SUCKED. Wasn't doing the job. They gave him NUMEROUS chances. Finally, they told him they didn't need him anymore, and told him why: Lack of performance in a simple job. All on the up-and-up...

A HUGE stink and lawsuit later, the guy was re-hired, and left to his own devices, simply to collect a paycheck. All because "It was 'cause I be BLACK..."

Fucking BULLSHIT. We couldn't say boo to him, couldn't ask him to do ANYTHING (even within his job description) without it being "the Man telling him what to do"...

Do your fucking job, asshole. Be a productive member of society. JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

Thanks to PC crybabies, people like this are empowered to do NOTHING but sit and complain...

It covers all races, some more than others....
It needs to stop.
That is all...

Caliann · Post by **Caliann** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:05 pm

Rabbit_Fighter wrote: How about Indians? You mean, Native Americans, or people from India? Well let's call them "East Indians" . . . .but what if they are from Mumbai which is on the west coast of India? That kind of makes them West Indian, but we don't want to confuse them with people from the West Indies.

You call Native Americans, American Indians, Indigenous Americans or First Peoples...whatever you want...mainly because *WE* cannot come to a consensus on what to be called yet. So far, it seems to be leaning toward American Indian, as opposed to Indian-American.

piccini9 · Post by **piccini9** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:16 pm

Caliann wrote:
piccini9 wrote:East Indian south Asian from the northwest near Pakistan would be called what exactly?
Human.

Amen, sister.

Rabbit_Fighter · Post by **Rabbit_Fighter** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:19 pm

Caliann wrote:
Rabbit_Fighter wrote: How about Indians? You mean, Native Americans, or people from India? Well let's call them "East Indians" . . . .but what if they are from Mumbai which is on the west coast of India? That kind of makes them West Indian, but we don't want to confuse them with people from the West Indies.
You call Native Americans, American Indians, Indigenous Americans or First Peoples...whatever you want...mainly because *WE* cannot come to a consensus on what to be called yet. So far, it seems to be leaning toward American Indian, as opposed to Indian-American.

And I'll call you whatever you prefer to be called. I only brought up that example as a case where any kind of literal breakdown of the word makes things prone to confusion. "African-American" means something . . . sure it can get confusing when you talk about the Ethiopian immigrant vs. the 10th generation black man, but most of the time, people know what you are talking about.

My experience as an "American" (and being of the predominant racial profile in this country, hyphens are generally omitted) is going to be a different experience than you have as an "American Indian", or somebody else might have as an "African-American." We share a lot of values and history, but It would be completely ludicrous to say that we are all the same.

Back to the original post . . . . I'm still not sure what that guy is saying we should do. Am I supposed to start giving black people shit?

Hey Stacius! Let's have a beer soon so I can knock that chip of your shoulder or whatever. Look out dude . . . .I'm not walking on eggshells anymore!

monstergirl · Post by **monstergirl** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:33 pm

Rabbit_Fighter wrote:Hey Stacius! Let's have a beer soon so I can knock that chip of your shoulder or whatever. Look out dude . . . .I'm not walking on eggshells anymore!

Hahaha! I'll join you as long as Stacius is willing to knock the chips off our shoulders too!

Actually, I'd just like to get to meet up with you guys for a beer soon. Too bad you won't be able to ride there. Wait! Maybe your wife can ride you there!!! I'm sure she's been practicing!

Caliann · Post by **Caliann** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 12:06 am

Rabbit_Fighter wrote: And I'll call you whatever you prefer to be called.

I generally prefer to be called "Caliann". Radical, I know, but it is just my preference. I will occasionally answer to "Hey you!"

Ames · Post by **Ames** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:05 am

True, but I think the gist of this discussion is the central question of, "Why should we be concerned about the perception of what we said and not the meaning?"
I think if we had a better understanding of history in general we'd be more aware of the fact that just about EVERYONE has been subjugated and oppressed by someone else at some point.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine, he was telling me about his sister back in Viet Nam and how she worked in a French bank. "French? Didn't the Vietnamese kick them out before they kicked us out?"
"Yeah," he said smiling wryly, "but our country's been over-run and taken over so many times by so many people that if we held a grudge, we wouldn't be able to talk with anyone."
Made a lot of sense to me. Still does.

Rabbit_Fighter · Post by **Rabbit_Fighter** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 6:38 am

stacius wrote:Beer is fine, but I doubt you'll find me with a chip on my shoulder. . . . .

Then we'll stick with beer then!

Caliann · Post by **Caliann** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:04 pm

stacius wrote:
Ames wrote:True, but I think the gist of this discussion is the central question of, "Why should we be concerned about the perception of what we said and not the meaning?"
Aw, c'mon. Are you seriously saying everything that's said should be taken entirely at face value?

If one of my friends, someone I'd broken bread with, gotten drunk with, someone I felt I could trust called me a 'rustybutt jerkoff' in jest, I'd laugh. But if I don't know you -- I think you should be concerned about how I'd perceive that.

Nothing is entirely free of context.

Black folks became 1st class citizens (legally, anyway) just 44 years ago. And while we have a lot of self-inflicted problems to fix, there's a lot of non-self inflicted damage to repair too. If someone wants to call that a 'chip on the shoulder' that's fine. But while we're working on fixing ourselves, maybe you can continue to work on redlining, racial profiling, police harassment and general asshattery too, OK?

Then there's the example that Dave brought up. Anyone that doesn't do the work they're hired to do should be fired...right? He's an asshole who 'got over'. The same way that asshole Dick Cheney gets over...i.e. taking advantage of the system (which ain't all that perfect to begin with). But that doesn't make the guy you're talking about some sort of flag carrier for all black folks everywhere.
And it's not un-PC to criticize Cheney, just potentially dangerous.

Anyway...

Beer!!

+1 Stacius. My people are working on many of the same things...trying to fix ourselves from the inside while still having to deal with shit from the outside.

My friends can call me a half-breed, heathen blanket-ass all they want, and I'll laugh. Hell, I even call myself that sometimes. But strangers?

It's kinda like Richard Pryor saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger. I am going to keep saying that until it loses the power to hurt a small, black child."

There is a difference between making fun of ourselves, and being made fun of by others. Making fun of ourselves is socially acceptable, and even encouraged. Making fun of others is downright rude at best.

I'll take rum instead of beer, thanks.

:)

sun rat · Post by **sun rat** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 5:13 pm

+1 stacius!

stacius wrote: Like Dan says, say what you want...nobody's stopping you. Just like anything you do in life, there are consequences.

and i totally agree. i just am SO not seeing consequences for people who act like jerks these days. and i'm tired of when i call someone on their bs getting jumped all over for being PC, whatever the hell that is. but i'm not going to stop.

i just want my multi-racial grandkids to have a better world to be growing up in.

leftlaneguy · Post by **leftlaneguy** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:17 pm

I am really hesitant to get any further into this conversation, but in the spirit of the basis to this discussion, I'll go with it...

First off, I'm curious if any of you have taken offense to anything *I* have said. I don't believe I have said anything "out of school" on the subject.

Secondly, I *do* have a few issues pertaining to this, mostly due to my experiences in New Orleans during and after hurricane Katrina. Sorry. Fact of life. I'm working on it, as it does bother me that my perceptions were so fundamentally changed.

This is not to say that I carry this perception to EVERY person of any given race... There are fucktards everywhere, in all shapes/colours. But from my PERSONAL experiences over the last 3 years, I have a pretty solid 'working opinion' of the situation being discussed. Things the wife and I saw with our own eyes, things we heard first-hand, and things we personally experienced will undeniably alter any given perceptions. Much like my week-long stint as a 'bouncer' at the most notoriuos gay-bar in New Orleans, during Southern Decadence... My personal perception of the Gay American Male has forever been altered.

Honestly, I agree almost 100% with what the pastor had to say in that particular video. Things have to change. Perceptions MUST be altered. PC-ism needs to stop. It is ruining peoples' ability to empathize with others, and destroying any real discorse on understanding "the other-side"...

For the record, my family emigrated from England, and Germany in the mid-1860's... My great-grandmother on my mother's side was 100% Cherokee. I have Spanish-Mexican aunts and uncles... You could say my family reunions looks like an add for United Colours of Benneton.... I'm not unfamiliar with the 'plights' of some minority classes... BUT. I did not have anything to do with the oppression of Blacks. I did not have anything to do with slaughtering Native-Americans. I did not have anything to do with the "Final-Solution" in WWII Germany... Nor did anyone in my family, or anyone I know personally. I refuse to keep bieng told that I'm an asshole who should apologize/pay for the woes of others who can't seem to pull thier collective heads out of thier asses, and take advantage of the same status I have: Being AMERICAN.

If I've offended, let me know... That's REALLY what this is about...

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here's something everybody should watch