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Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:44 pm
by Jaeger
Thus proving that stupid hurts:

WaPo wrote:A woman with a 1-year-old child in her car was fatally shot by police near the U.S. Capitol on Thursday, after a chase through the heart of Washington that brought a new jolt of fear to a city already rattled by the recent Navy Yard shooting and the federal shutdown.

The car was registered to Miriam Carey, 34, a dental hygienist from Stamford, Conn., law enforcement officials said, adding that they believed Carey was the driver

...

The chase began about 2:15 p.m. at a White House security checkpoint, where the woman struck a barrier and a Secret Service officer with her black Infiniti. The woman fled that fortified icon and headed straight for another: the Capitol

...

It began with something not that unusual — a driver with out-of-state plates turning into a blocked entry near the White House.

It quickly became something else.

“Whoa! Whoa!,” Secret Service officers were shouting at the car, according to a witness, Shawn Joseph, 29. “It looked liked [the driver was] scared or lost. I thought they might have been a tourist.”

But then, witnesses said, officers tried to place a barrier in front of the car. The driver swerved. The officers moved the barrier. She hit it, and a Secret Service officer was thrown up on the hood and then off the car.

LINK
and...
WaPo wrote: She had a toddler with her, confounding everyone who watched her black sedan crash through barriers and lead police through the heart of high-security Washington.

Law enforcement officials said the Infiniti was registered to a young mother named Miriam Carey, a 34-year-old dental hygienist from Stamford, Conn. They believe it was Carey, with her 1-year-old daughter sitting behind her, who flattened barricades outside the White House, striking officers and then leading others on a high-speed pursuit up Constitution Avenue. D.C.

...

During her friendship with Carey, Windley said she had never witnessed Carey lashing out in anger “beyond, you know, normal girl stuff, like, ‘what is up with her’ about another girl, but nothing crazy. Some sharp words, that would be it.”

Carey also had not shown signs of mental illness during the time Windley knew her and “was not one to even talk about politics.”

Carey did not have many friends, Windley said, and could seem “arrogant. If there was a negative, people said that was it. She could be sort of conceited, like she knew everything.”

...

LINK

I think it's pretty obvious what happened here. High-strung out-of-town rich-bitch soccer mom made a wrong turn in DC into the entrance to the White House (DC'ers know it well). The cops hollered at her, she panicked, hit a cop trying to escape, and ran.

This is precisely the sort of incident we hear described in Iraq, etc., when someone approaches a checkpoint, freaks out, and the guys with guns do precisely what they're trained to do. I haven't been downtown and nobody's reporting on it, but I wager security is subtly (but substantially) amped up right about now. (Let's not forget that some guy went batshit over at the Navy Yard just last week...)

Gosh, y'think everybody's a little too tense nowadays?

Anyway, the lesson here is that the security folks in DC do not play. They are the real deal. Some of you have heard my stories about the weird shit I've seen around here, and some of y'all have stories of your own. If you are unfortunate enough to piss them off, unless your name is Bruce Fucking Lee and you're driving the Batmobile, the smart response is to be calm, polite, and cooperative.

I feel bad for the poor kid, though. Hopefully the kid's smarter (or at least more level-headed) than their mom.

Let's see how long it takes for this to become some conspiracy...

--Jaeger

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:59 am
by Pattio
Jaeger wrote:
I think it's pretty obvious what happened here. High-strung out-of-town rich-bitch soccer mom made a wrong turn in DC into the entrance to the White House (DC'ers know it well). The cops hollered at her, she panicked, hit a cop trying to escape, and ran.

This is precisely the sort of incident we hear described in Iraq, etc., when someone approaches a checkpoint, freaks out, and the guys with guns do precisely what they're trained to do. I haven't been downtown and nobody's reporting on it, but I wager security is subtly (but substantially) amped up right about now. (Let's not forget that some guy went batshit over at the Navy Yard just last week...)


--Jaeger

The details are always painfully slow to emerge in the aftermath of these things, but I think rich-bitch is way off. How about mentally-ill and postpartum-depressed dental hygenist from CT in a leased Japanese sedan committing suicide-by-cop? I really really doubt that either entitlement or panic was a part of this.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:11 am
by DerGolgo
It's entirely possible that it's neither.
For some people, the fight-or-flight response can overwhelm any rational thought they might otherwise be capable of.
In the right situation, if suddenly frightened, they don't think. They don't judge "if I go that way, I'll get out of here" or anything like that. They just act, base instincts and muscle memory taking over.
The lady, perhaps lost on her way someplace, suddenly found herself confronted with armed men shouting at her, gates being closed in her way. Trapped. At the wheel of her car. Where the instinct to flee kicks in the muscle memory that operates the gas pedal. At which point the situation escalates, so does the panic and whatnot.

It's entirely possible that, rather than an entitled rich bitch who reacted like that because of her general feeling of being entitled to act however she wants, or a headcase, this was just a confused, frightened woman panicking. Live hadn't equipped her with the skills to react to a suddenly changing situation, hadn't prepared her to stay calm enough in the face of perceived danger.
Those Secret Service dudes probably had no real choice than doing what they did. For all they knew, she was a white supremacist, a militia-nutter or what have you with two hundred pounds of plastique in the trunk and a farewell video to the world on youtube. In the middle east, a surprising number of suicide bombers are women, actually, so expecting this sort of thing from a woman is regrettably reasonable.

If this shows anything, it's that driver training really, really should focus on teaching people not just to react quickly to changing situations, but also on not to react emotionally. You don't need to be Mr. Spock, but even before you get into road-rage, decisions driven by fear and executed by muscle memory cause a lot of entirely avoidable incidents. You see men with guns, in uniforms, yelling at you and gesturing you to stop? Heck, you see anyone but an apparent gang member trying to block the road in front of you and yelling at you? You fucking stop. You're frightened, confused, don't know what to do and you aren't on a main road or there's no traffic coming behind you? Meet your new best friend, the brake pedal. Flooring it is the best reaction to a situation only very, very, very rarely. Drivers should be taught that, as long as they're not on the motorway or the like, the right reaction to a situation beyond their control, experience, judgment and abilities is to drop anchor. Of course, drivers must also be taught to fucking respect the fucking two second rule for that, and that's never gonna happen.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:31 am
by Jaeger
I'll admit that I'm spectulating for much of this, but...

I currently know a LOT of 30-something moms with infants (it happens when you have one yourself). Most of these gals -- especially here in the snooty DC 'burbs -- live in their own little bubble and cannot fathom how the rest of the world works. The description of her in the second article sounds a lot like some of the soccer moms I know around here.

I say "rich" because of the Infiniti and the hometown of Stanford, which, according to Wiki, " is home to four Fortune 500 Companies,[2] nine Fortune 1000 Companies, and thirteen Courant 100 Companies, as well as numerous divisions of large corporations. This gives Stamford the largest financial district in New York Metro outside New York City itself and one of the largest concentrations of corporations in the nation."

I say "panic" because having been hollered at by lots and lots of people (including cops around here), I see how it could be somewhat shocking, especially when those people were carrying automatic weapons. I wouldn't be at all surprised if those cops are being especially aggressive right now given everything that's going on. Remember, when they say "cops" or "security" around here, we're not talking Deputy Dog -- we're talking military-trained and military-mentality security who truly don't give a good god damn about anything other than protecting their principal.

I obviously didn't know this gal personally, but if she was the "type" that I'm thinking, a momentary panic seems quite reasonable. While I suppose postpartum depression could be a factor, again, having seen that up close and personal, that doesn't fit with my experience. Don't know.

Golgo, you hit the nail on the head:
Golgo wrote:...this was just a confused, frightened woman panicking. Life hadn't equipped her with the skills to react to a suddenly changing situation, hadn't prepared her to stay calm enough in the face of perceived danger.

Those Secret Service dudes probably had no real choice than doing what they did. For all they knew, she was a white supremacist, a militia-nutter or what have you with two hundred pounds of plastique in the trunk and a farewell video to the world on youtube. In the middle east, a surprising number of suicide bombers are women, actually, so expecting this sort of thing from a woman is regrettably reasonable.
That is basically what I'm calling stupid. That lady put everybody in DC in a fucking panic because everybody is ALREADY wound too goddamn tight. And yes, I'm pretty sure that the security guys had little choice considering the circumstances and for the very reasons you cite. I'm not saying the woman was deficient or crazy, I'm postulating that when confronted with what's effectively a military roadblock that the pissed off, she reacted poorly... just like many, many people did (do) in Iraq, and soldiers wind up killing women and kids who didn't stop when told to.

Remember that other thread with the guy and the horde of bikers? She effectively did the same thing that the guy in the Range Rover did -- but instead of a dumbass pack of bikers, she pissed off the Secret Service.

Suicide by cop would be more reasonable if 1) she didn't have her kid in the car, and 2) she didn't run. That the cops/Feds are treating this as some grand investigation I suppose is appropriate only because this poor lady got whacked, but when I hear the DC Police chief infer that there might have been malicious motives I cannot help but roll my eyes. Again, if you know that intersection, it's a little awkward,and it's pretty clear how someone could screw up and go in there accidentally. After that it could very easily turn into a symphony of shit.

Regardless, the whole thing is a goddamn shame. I wish that poor little kid all the luck in the world.

Be careful out there, folks, and keep your heads screwed on straight.

--Jaeger

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:54 am
by kitkat
"The House gave officers a standing ovation." --WaPo

For killing an unarmed mentally ill woman after she got out of a stopped car. Such heroics. Makes me all misty & chit... :/

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:09 am
by DerGolgo
I think I now see the "type" you mean, Jaeger. Not the type that actually thinks "These shits are in my way, getting out of my way is their problem!"
But, rather, the "I don't have to know what other people do, what the rules are - I know I'm doing it right, it's everybody else's fault they don't know how to act!" type. The type that simply doesn't comprehend that they can get themselves into trouble through nothing but ignorance. Fixated on the things that they deem important, excluding everything that's "not their problem". Unable to allow for the simple proposition that, just because they decide it's not their problem, it's not actually not their problem.
The type who go through life, blind to anything they consider "not their problem", not just ignorant to their surroundings and how they interact with these, but pro-actively ignorant. Actively pushing aside anything that doesn't fit their what, in their perception of reality, they have to concern themselves with. The only problem-solving strategy they ever develop is yelling at people.
In a situation that would require them to do something as demeaning as doing as they're told, that would require supplication to an authority they had no hand in selecting, that they don't even recognize. An authority they have, in an effort to establish their cozy little reality where they are king and queen of cheese, effectively edited out of their own list of people that get to tell them what to do.
When in that situation, suddenly confronted with that authority, they might as well be looking at space-aliens or a horde of naked Hittites.
That's the type you meant by rich bitch, right?

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:24 am
by Jaeger
DerGolgo wrote:... That's the type you meant by rich bitch, right?
I'm saying it's combination of living in an environment where things are usually very safe and soft, and possibly some of what you describe as well (which seems quite likely). Many, many Americans live in a world where serious and permanent consequences for their actions simply don't exist.

I'd wager that she was frightened, and had never been confronted with a heavily armed soldier barking orders at her. The question is whether she was motivated by fear or anger, and we'll likely never really know the truth in it. I bet it was fear once she realized she'd just hit a cop. I'd also wager that having someone with a gun yelling at you with your kid in the car could very easily trigger the "Mama Bear" reflex.

My mentioning "rich" was less about a possible sense of entitlement (though the implication was deliberate), but to point out that she likely lived in a very comfortable bubble where Bad Things don't happen.
kitkat wrote:"The House gave officers a standing ovation." --WaPo

For killing an unarmed mentally ill woman after she got out of a stopped car. Such heroics. Makes me all misty & chit... :/
Yeah. They're being called "heroes." Bullshit, they were doing their jobs; nothing more, nothing less. I find it distasteful in the extreme that all this is somehow being cast in the light of being "heroic." It was a colossal cock-up, and calling it anything different or trying to whitewash it is disgusting.

The cops/soldiers didn't do anything "wrong" per se, but trying to clumsily spin the story like that makes my stomach turn.

The whole episode sounds like something you'd see in a dystopian Kubrick movie. :(

--Jaeger

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:55 am
by kitkat
They may not have "done anything wrong" according to their *programming*, but they did plenty wrong according to any ethical sense in the least way connected to reality. Riddling peeps with bullets *post* threat containment is pure police-state excess.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:28 am
by Rench
All the details are obviously a ways off, however, I'm pretty solidly in with kitkat on this one.

I'll agree with Jaeger about the general not heroes, just doing their jobs, but that's when you don't fuck up, and they pretty well fucked up. As riders, every one of us knows a car is a deadly weapon, and if she was shot through the glass, in the act of ramming, I'd feel better about it.

As it stands, she exited the vehicle (comparable: put the weapon on the deck), and was summarily executed.

Fuck. That. I hope heads roll and that kid doesn't become too much of a trust fund train wreck in 17 years, but s/he should definitely be taken care of on those idiot cops' dime.

-Rench

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 9:39 am
by DerGolgo
I've looked at the video. I had previously assumed, from Jaeger's quotes and the bits of the article that I read, that this had been a matter of a few seconds, something that happened in a hurry, snap decisions only, all of that.
But she managed to drive off, made a run for it. And she didn't hit the brakes once she was clear or once a cop car was after her. She kept trying to get away. I think stopping when a cop car is after you should be a universal response for anyone who tries to surrender to the law. She didn't exactly do that, from what I saw in the video.
I'd want to see a video of her actually getting out of the car before making up my mind further. With that sort of behavior, cops involved may have had a reason to be suspicious. Did she have her hands up or was she perhaps rummaging around in her purse?
An act innocent enough, in general. Trying to find the cellphone when you're about to be arrested, perfectly normal. But it's not like it couldn't have been a handgun or the like. Unless you can figure out a way to make cops fearless enough to risk their life by giving a potentially murderous hostile the opportunity to surrender.

EDIT:..., they'll be proactive about defending themselves.
Forgot how I had started that sentence by the time I finished it.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:26 am
by Jaeger
DerGolgo wrote: ...An act innocent enough, in general. Trying to find the cellphone when you're about to be arrested, perfectly normal. But it's not like it couldn't have been a handgun or the like. Unless you can figure out a way to make cops fearless enough to risk their life by giving a potentially murderous hostile the opportunity to surrender.
Yup. And, as I mentioned before, folks around here are even more tense than normal due to both last week's fiasco at the Navy Yard (remember that?) and the clusterfuck up on The Hill. Believe me, I'm sure they're braced for all sorts of riots 'n' shit given how angry and contentious Americans are right now.

You gotta think like a cop for a moment: Goal #1 for every single day you're on the job is to go home at the end of your shift. This lady not only ran from the police after (accidentally) sticking her nose into one of the most secure and heavily fortified spots on Earth, but she hit a cop with her car in the process.

Golgo, yeah, she was ripping around for quite a while. I've no doubt that by that point she was convinced that they were going to riddle her car with bullets and kill both her and her kid. Thankfully they showed at least some restraint in not using a goddamn bazooka on her.
kitkat wrote:They may not have "done anything wrong" according to their *programming*, but they did plenty wrong according to any ethical sense in the least way connected to reality. Riddling peeps with bullets *post* threat containment is pure police-state excess.
The application of violence is always an ethical issue. I really hesitate to defend the actions of the cops (let's be honest and call them "soldiers") because deep down I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately, we have a nation full of people who are incredibly pissed off and armed to the teeth. Security downtown behaves accordingly.

IF there hadn't been the Navy Yard shooting last week, and IF the country (or at least the Crapital) weren't in utter turmoil by shutting down and threatening financial Armageddon this gal MIGHT have survived the encounter. Instead, security is essentially at DefCon 4 (or whatever it's called nowadays) and a provocation that injures a cop in the line of duty will most assuredly bring down the wrath of god.

I've had some very minor brushes with these guys in the past under more relaxed circumstances. Friends and acquaintances have had some that were more severe (e.g., one of my former Lebanese co-workers who turned into "the wrong parking lot" and wound up surrounded with the muzzle of a Glock pressed into his windshield. Thankfully he was smart enough to be polite and cooperative, and is now a happy U.S. Citizen.).

Security around here is much less concerned with the well-being of everybody else; rather, their job is to protect the gubmint from angry citizens. Not saying that's right or wrong, just stating fact. This lady was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and responded in precisely the wrong way. :(

Again, this is all just a cautionary tale when dealing with cops and armed members of the Gubmint in general. It's lamentable, no question, but it's important to see why we got here.

--Jaeger

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:49 am
by Jaeger
Additional new article from The Daily Beast.

Sounds like yes, this lady might have truly been delusional. Or maybe she was a self-entitled bitch. Maybe both. I've no idea. Regardless, it was a regrettable clusterfuck that is by no means "heroic."

It's just fucking sad.

--Jaeger

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 10:56 am
by Rench
"Security around here is much less concerned with the well-being of everybody else; rather, their job is to protect the gubmint from angry citizens"

This. This right here, is the fundamental failure of Jefferson's democracy. Its painful to read as a cast off comment and not the centerpiece of a thesis. Or manifesto...

-Rench

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:10 am
by DerGolgo
A more appropriate phrasing might be:

"Security around here is much less concerned with the well-being of everybody else; rather, their job is to protect the gubmint from the specific angry citizens and others who don't want to wait for any elections to get rid of that gubmint"

Protecting that gubmint from anyone who wants to use violence to get rid of it is integral to democracy. If the people's chosen representatives, be they legislative or executive, can be removed from office by one guy, the will of the people isn't protected or respected. One asshole with a gun or a bomb must not be allowed to take away the citizenry's right to make their choice in an election.

She walked into the wrong place, at the wrong time, and did the wrong thing, as Jaeger said. Neither side may be blameless here, but the overall situation is what is most to blame. In that situation, the protection of the principal may not be weakened or diluted. Not even to give a potentially innocent or potentially murderous threat the chance to surrender. They might not only risk their own life, but a dead cop can't protect nobody - they might actually risk weakening that protection. That's a shitty situation and, perhaps, risking your life and even your responsibility to give someone a chance to surrender should be part of the overall paradigm. But right now, it isn't.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:16 am
by Rench
Fair enough DG, but even as I wrote it, I was thinking of the failure if the citizenry to live up to our heritage as well as our bohemoth gov't's Orwellian aspirations.

People who are educated and consciously accept the responsibility of self-governance don't go all one-man-army.

-Rench

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 11:41 am
by DerGolgo
People generally aren't too fond of accepting any responsibility for anything. Least of all, or so it sometimes seems, the people who shout loudest about how everyone should be responsible for themselves.
It's not necessarily such an evident failure.
99.9% of the population could be respecting the democratic process, law and order, all of that. But in the US, that would leave 300,000 people who'd rather further their political agenda by spraying someone with bullets. 300,000, that's about the manpower you lot used to invade and occupy Iraq, isn't it? Seems quite enough people to knock off one guy.
Even if it was 99.99% of the population who'd never even consider using violence against the government, you'd still be left with two to three infantry divisions worth of people who might go and try something.
That actual assassination attempts are so rare, apart from the actual deluded nutcase that appears now and again, probably isn't just due to the public perception of the security measures. While millions may want to punch him in the face, or really punch any politician in the face, killing him out of office probably isn't such a common desire. Most of the danger will come from the deranged, and it's not like those are particularly rare.

Of course, there actually are that sort of numbers of people the world over who might consider killing the US president a worthwhile endeavor.
All that security is as much of a comment on that as it is a comment on the US population. Perhaps more so. With the cooks thrown into the mix, and that an assassin "must be successful only once" as they say, while security "must be successful always", and the sheer numbers of potential assassins even if yours was a highly-enlightened society, the mere amount of security shouldn't drive you to despair. That the cops are generally trigger-happy over on your side of the pond, which is what it looks like from here, should probably be a more pressing reason for desperation.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:51 pm
by kitkat
Lessee...The USA today:
1) maintains at least one full blown concentration camp
2) Legalized treatment it in the past declared "torture" when done by it's enemies.
3) It's president maintains a Kill List of state enemies which includes US citizens.
4) Has perpetrated extrajudicial executions of citizens..and brags about it.
5) Has a sham electoral system completely co-opted by the monied oligarchy.
6) Has coerced service systems purposed to provide corporate sector profit support on the public dime (banks, healthcare etc).
7) has an almost universally corrupt law enforcement regime (power).
8) Has an almost universally corrupt judicial system (money).
9) Surveils its citizenry's communications at all levels; records associations & movements, all without cause or apology.
10) Conducts political espionage against any opposing movement whatsoever, "legal" or otherwise.
11) I could go on and on and...on. Wars of aggression based on lies, secret police, secret courts, militarized police forces, the globe's highest incarceration rate, #1 arms dealer, militaristic culture/economy for daaaaays...Gini index in 3rd world range... oh yeh..on and on.

Calling this nation state a "democracy" is a fucking joke. We have the same "voting" choice the folks in the USSR had: state endorsed A or state endorsed B. It is a militaristic regime combining the monied interests of a tiny minority with the full coercive power of the state. That is called fascism. That it is usually perpetrated upon us with a certain finesse, grade A "freedom" propaganda/lip service and with velvet gloves doesn't change the monstrosity under the mask. No, it's a done deal and the only thing that will change is how narrow the straight & is going to become.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:26 am
by stiles
kitkat wrote:Lessee...The USA today:
1) maintains at least one full blown concentration camp
If you're referring to gitmo, could you point out where the gas chambers are?

Your comparison really does a disservice to Holocaust survivors and their families.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 10:50 am
by guitargeek
'Murka.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:04 am
by stiles
http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/201 ... -shots.cnn" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

She used the car as a battering ram, smashing into the marked car that was boxing her in, in order to make an escape. I'm surprised they didn't start shooting when she did that, considering she was surrounded by cops on foot at that time as well and they all were at risk of being run over by her.

She didn't have a gun, but she most certainly was not "unarmed". Once she uses the car as a weapon against police officers, those officers are justified in using deadly force.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:33 am
by DerGolgo
Indeed, calling Gitmo a concentration camp is more insulting to those who had to suffer through our concentration camps over here than it's insulting to the USA. The meaning of concentration camp in the modern dictum has a pretty narrow definition, one that involves killing people en-masse, and for no better reason than that you can.

In the interest of accuracy: Before becoming synonymous with death camp, a concentration camp was a place where people of certain ethnicities, political opponents and the like would be interred. They've been around like that since the 18th century, the modern term came around when the Brits built such camps as part of their war against the Boers in South Africa.
But considering that meaning, or considering the history that did change the meaning associated with that term, it doesn't strike me as appropriate either way.

I think there might just be no historical precedent we can use to describe Guantanamo so easily. It's not just a prison camp, but a high-security prison for foreign nationals considered a "threat", isn't it. Foreign national captured in overseas combat or "renditioned". Unlike the Gulags, which were for people who misbehaved within the USSR, and were Soviet citizens, mostly. Also unlike the Gulags, Guantanamo inmates are held without legal recourse and without trial - on the mere accusation of being an enemy, rather than for anything they actually have done. A Gulag inmate had been "convicted" by a "court" for what they had "done", but, unless sentenced to life, had a set time to serve and, if they managed to stay alive that long, would then be "released" (with even more restrictions of where they could go than the usual Soviet citizen had). A Guantanamo inmate stays inside until someone decides they are no longer so dangerous if released. At least that's my understanding, or did they start giving them trials in recent years?
The pre-German meaning associated with the term "concentration camp" is close, but doesn't strike me as entirely accurate, and certainly not appropriate, considering with how that meaning has changed.

As regards the car being a deadly weapon ... indeed, but if she had gotten out, she had effectively dropped that weapon. On the other hand, she had previously demonstrated her willingness to use a weapon against the cops.
Without seeing what the cops saw when she climbed out of the car, that is difficult, if not impossible, to judge. I think what they did may in fact not have been right. But, at the same time, it probably wasn't all wrong, either.
Trying to assign blame and decide that one or the other is all to blame for the whole affair is probably futile. She shouldn't have done what she did, and definitely not where she did it. The cops didn't give her a chance to surrender, acted without due care and too quickly. But for either of them, you can probably find an excuse why they did what they did. For whatever reason she started off what she did, the lady was likely panicked out of her mind, not thinking straight. The cops likewise, actually, all their training may have been telling them that they were dealing with a dangerous terrorist, intent on killing them at the first opportunity, and they were under a bit of stress with the current situation, too, probably.
Even if it turns out she was planning something - was the cop reaction justified, had she perhaps come to her senses and had tried to surrender?
This may well become one of those things that go down in the long list of events that people will keep pondering and and occasionally talking about for yonks. Or it might disappear into obscurity. What is certain is that, unless there was a camera filming what happened when she got out of the car, with sound, or a few of the shooting cops come forwards, corroborating one another's story of how they killed her for no reason, no misconduct by the cops will ever be possible to prove or disprove with any confidence.
Barring the appearance of new evidence, I suspect we will have to chalk this one up as a genuine tragedy. Based on what the cops say to any inquiry that might be undertaken, they might change the rules of engagement for such incidents. With the media coverage this is getting, I'm sure many people will think twice about making any turns into DC streets they are unfamiliar with and will probably react to instruction hollered by cops there more quickly. This has proven beyond doubt that you can get yourself killed if you act idiotic in that town.
But apart from any of that, it probably really is just a tragedy of bad decisions and bad reactions in a fairly violent, armed and paranoid society*.


*
I don't mean this as any sort of criticism or cheap-shot or whatnot. You lot just come across as having a fair bit of violence going on, you've got more guns than most armies and you don't much like giving anyone the benefit of the doubt, do you. At least that's the impression I'm getting when I watch your current-affairs programs and stuff like that.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 1:30 pm
by Mk3
I've kept quiet for a bit, but this is why I'm disappointed:
- In this situation, to put it in some context, no one shot back at Lee Harvey Oswald or John Hinkley; each effectively a terrorist who had shot the president. That said, with what I know of myself, I probably would have shot at her, a lot, in the car, out of the car, in a house, with a mouse; its one of the reasons I'm not a cop

- A concentration camp, really? Are we conducting door-to-door searches rounding up Muslims based on their beliefs and culture and placing them into isolation from society? We Americans are not innocent, we did it to Japanese Americans, but arresting and detaining suspected terrorists parts far from a concentration camp. I don't have a problem with debating the legality or justifications used to arrest these folks, but don't be sensationalist for shits and giggles, it demeans your other, very valid, points

- Lastly, to all of the Americans bitching about the militarized state right now, have you written to your representatives? Did you bother to vote? Its a lot tougher to corrupt a system people are participating in. Certainly achievable, but tougher. As a country we do a whole lot of griping without a whole lot of getting off our asses to punch a little card. The clowns that get elected cater to the people who will un-ass their chairs. The funding sources line pockets attempting to motivate the citizenry to vote their way, but if only honey-boo-boo's mother bothers to hit the voting booth (which I believe she did) while a listless academic caste complains from the periphery then this what you get. We type grumpily and receive the harvest others have sewn and swine have reaped.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:05 pm
by kitkat
The German nazis didn't invent the term "concentration camp" and i used it in the *British* historical sense as it was *they* who coined the term (and the british, not the nazi's not the italians, were the original fascists as well with their east india company, hudson's bay company etc.). We have a long history of running such camps, first with the american indians and then the Chinese and then the Japanese (which was the kindest version of them all) and now for middle easterners. And it is not the only one we are involved with today I promise you; it is simply the one we know about. Call these places anything you like--the salient point is that people the gov't doesn't care for get locked up until the jailers either get tired of having you around or you die.

The idea that the honey-boo-boo watchers are going to "wake up" and make our national "freedom/gov't for the peeps" fantasy come true is just ludicrous. That fat part of the bell curve (that today serves as american democacy's proxy of legitimacy) has always been ultimately manipulable by their leaders/instigators--that latter role has always been the job of the intelligent & functional sociopaths of the tail. It is a numbers game and "democracy" is the perect system to legitimize the evolved version of tyranny global capitalism represents today. This manipulation has never been so perfected in history. The refinement of propaganda, the advances in psych science, the ability to use society as a real time experiment in manipulation through the data troves being amassed by corp and gov't systems all over the globe all ensure that the only "change" of anything will come from above not below. And there is only one force which has dominion over those above--the physical reality of a closed system: our planet. That makes for a sturdy & longlasting playground. This all is just getting going.

That perennially *tiny* segment of the subject population that even sniffs a clue of what their situation may be is utterly powerless to do anything other than self-destruct or simply watch & endure. It is a numbers game and they have no relevant numbers. That such can effect "change" of the intrinsic functionality and purposes of such enduring power structures through their words, activism, protest, organization--"their" internet--lol-- or whatever is a simple myth and _always_ has been--it is the sociopaths which _always_ endure in power simply because they do not play by rules their "principled opponents" _must_ operate under to ensure their own self-respect. It is that key strategic and tactical advantage that always ensures the ultimate preservation of the power of the amoral. If you stop and consider for a moment such a lopsided competition for power it should be obvious that such can have no other outcome.

As for "freedom", a developed and wholly owned world does not contain "freedom"--all it contains is *permission*. The rest is illusion. True, the permissions thusfar have remained relatively broad around these parts, thanks to resource plenitude and so it is easy enough to pretend freedom, but that is changing at a fully perceptible rate --which is again obvious to anyone who cares to keep track. So as resources tighten, so will the permissions; that is only way it can go for a highly parasitic species in a confined environment after all.

Last I really don't care about agreement or disagreement or neither with anything i've written. It is all meaningless and mere venting borne of a certain low level frustration with the macro aspects of the species i am a part of. On a micro level--and in the _really_ grand scene of things, the fact of consciousness in a universe of profound inantimacy is that from which flows all that I call "good" and "happy". Really that is all that is necessary to enable looking at the rest with eyes wide open and acceptance of the ultimate fate such represents.

basta.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 1:59 am
by DerGolgo
So let me see whether I understand what you're saying.
Not to describe any agreement or disagreement, just to find understanding.

Kitkat, you say that democracy is an illusion, popular movements change nothing because of what those within that movement want, but because of what that movement's leaders decide. The not-intelligent and/or not-sociopathic individual cannot affect any change, only the clever and the sociopaths are equipped to do that. There is no point in trying to address the masses to affect any change, and anything the masses may seem to desire is not, in fact, something they've picked, but what the intellopaths have picked.
The people who actually are clever enough to get it cannot do anything about it, not against the sheer mass of the "dumb", lead by the intelligent sociopaths. They are the actual victims around here.
Is that about right?

On the premise that I've understood what you were trying to say, I think you do actually have a few valid points. But, in the words of one who knew fascism from the inside:
Winston Churchill wrote:Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
I note this because your criticism sounds a bit, well, dangerous. The masses cannot and will not think for themselves? Change from below isn't possible? Democracy doesn't work? There are greater problems that must be solved, the limited resources and all that? I've heard things that sound like that before, from sources you don't want to be associated with. Sources with which I do not wish to associate you, either. I read boiling anger and despair in that post, but based on things you have previously expressed, I know you aren't with the crowd who's rationales this sounds a lot like.

The thing is, broad social change doesn't happen because one shining leader steps forward and makes it happen. They can push through little changes in isolation like that, but even for that, they at least need followers who follow them, if not their ideas. Broad social changes happen because the time is right, the circumstances are right and enough people are already leaning in that direction - it's the shining leader's job to give these people permission to act. Most people will not dare to express an opinion, or even admit that opinion to themselves, unless they perceive that they're not alone with it. They need the permission of the tribe to think anything, so they need some person or group, big and visible, so their opinion won't make them feel like the one thing they truly and utterly fear and despise - to be the other, the outsider, the one not of the tribe. They need all this because, as long as they have a tribe to do stuff with, they don't actually have to feel responsibility for what they're doing/feeling/saying there. These people, at their heart, accept the individual's responsibility for their own actions. They are hence scared shitless of doing anything they might actually be responsible for - having a tribe do it, just following the herd, lets them abdicate that responsibility. What's more, it lets them pick and choose the moral and ethical standards they'd like to be perceived as living by, because of personal preference or a desire for tribal membership, which is a lot easier than actually living by certain moral or ethical standards. I think those with such an approach have been described as "sheeple", but I doubt anyone can claim to be utterly free of it.
The sociopaths would be the ones who either don't care what they may be responsible for or not or who can rationalize that, really, they either have not choice or are acting morally to begin with, which they can use conveniently to set the minds of their followers at ease, also.
Of course, such shining leaders will have to make up their mind about certain details and side-issues, and once enough (or any) people are following them, must make up their mind about just about anything. If there's an issue, and they don't have an opinion about it, someone else might slip into the leader-slot and take over for them. They decide their positions not so much on what they think they can get away with, or on how they think they might skirt responsibility, but on how it will strengthen their position. If the opportunity presents itself to combine that with something they themselves want to do anyway, they'll do that, of course. But, in their public statements and interactions with their followers, respecting the opinions of the tribe is just as important as it is for the followers, only from the other direction. Here's where the actual following happens though. Confronted with an issue they hadn't previously had a clear opinion on, many people will just adopt whatever the leaders they have chosen to follow tell them. After all, they are the leader of the people they already agree with, so this has to be the opinion of the tribe, they have to agree with it, also. They have always felt like that anway, they will insist.

But activism can affect change. Because activism can create a new background noise, can make it seem more acceptable to have opinion x. Once enough people proclaim opinion x, even if many will do it only because it makes them feel like they are perceived as fashionable and one-the-frontier, "sheeple" may discover that this actually matches what they themselves feel like and that, now, they have permission to feel like this. They may rally behind a new leader then, or the existing leaders may find that, in order to maintain their position of authority, they better jump on the bandwagon in a hurry. At the same time, there's always a backlash, of course - as x becomes popular, those feeling uncomfortable about x will gang together also, with much the same effects regarding leadership.

One possible example would be intellectual property. ACTA, the Anti-Counterfiting Trade Agreement, was a crucial international treaty, one that we needed for economic stability and so forth. But activists started making a fuss about it. Enough people joined in the fuss, and "ratifying it is in our interest" became "we must ratify it, there is no alternative!", became "we will have a public debate and closely study the implications that this treaty will bring" became "we never had any intention to just sign this!". Public opinion had been rallied against it by activists and the governments reacted. Once the first announcement was made that it wouldn't be signed, an Eastern European country I think it was, Estonia or Poland maybe, others followed suit quickly enough, jumping on that bandwagon. ACTA, thank god, is dead.

Declaring that x is pointless, and that y won't change anything strikes me as over-simplification. Yes, activism alone is pointless, the internet in and off itself won't change anything. But nothing exists in isolation, things, events and concepts are always interacting. It's a big, complicated mess.
Most of what makes our world what it is, most of the decisions, are made by those with the loudest voice/deepest pockets/most charisma, the sheeple will follow anything that makes them feel good/righteous/popular, rather than what they can, on thorough consideration, justify themselves. And while the individual activists can do little about what makes them feel like that, cannot create the perception that x is what the tribe has agreed on, a lot of individual activists can make x more and more palatable. Slowly, yes, often seemingly futile, but it can be done. If enough people do x, say x or what have you, a critical mass can eventually be achieved to make a fringe opinion a majority opinion. Sometimes, action from above, the leaders leading and whatnot, will help it along, sometimes even when they try to stop x - and have misjudged how popular it is or they themselves are and thus create a backlash in favor of x that is even stronger than the original movement in support of x.
Some sociopath or whatnot making a decision at the top, isolated and unpopular, and thus affecting actual lasting change happens, too, because of the corruption built into the system. But if they have half a brain, they'll first try to convince their own followers of this decision to make it palatable for the majority. They have to keep the sheeple on their side, lest they go and find themselves another side to be on, because change from below can and does happen.
Neither side in this, not the leaders nor the sheeple nor the enduring clue-sniffers, has a monopoly on running the show.

Yes, the establishment, with it's masses of followers, some of whom aren't even that mindless, just socialized to join the herd, they have an utterly unreasonable advantage. They can raise masses to support social changes they want to implement rather easily. By doing stuff out of the spotlight, by rallying their unthinking followers, they make the vast majority of all decisions, regardless of what might be in the actual interests of the larger population. But it's the cooperation and consent of the ruled that lets them rule like that and, sometimes, that cooperation and consent aren't there for the rulers to draw on. And they cannot do just anything they like, too much change too fast won't be accepted. They have to make sure that there's at least a minimum of perceived support for what they do.

This is where democracy comes in. As long as the rulers don't rule on their lonesome, as long as there are parliaments that get a word in edgewise, any change those at the very top want to bring about can still fail when those on a lower stratum of power jump ship because they fear loosing popular support. It's hardly perfect, far from it - but what else is there?
Personally, I think current western models of democracy are too abstract, people are too isolated from the decision making. Rather than making any decisions, rather than seeing themselves as having any direct responsibility therein, people see the decision making as something that is done by a leader, as you describe, who they have hired to do the thinking and the being responsible for them.
But it can work differently. In Switzerland, an inordinate number of decisions aren't made by parliament or whatnot - but by plebiscite. A while back, they made up their mind that huge bonuses and golden parachutes are bullshit. While the socially rather influential capitalist elites and the conservative government there rallied against it, the people decided it anyway. Democratically. A manager's bonus, be he a banker or in some other business, is now tied to their regular salary, there's a maximum that he or she may be paid without the shareholders specifically voting on it, and there's even a maximum of what bonus may be voted in for him. Now, I don't want to paint Switzerland as some happy paradise, but it shows that you can have a society in which the sheeple take more responsibility and in which democracy is a little more than a mere excuse for sociopaths to do as they please/can get away with.

As they say, in a democracy, decisions get made by those who show up. Our problem is that, with big money controlling who gets to be heard, and the influence of the individual on actual decisions being between very limited and nill, too many people don't bother showing up and prefer watching honey-boo-boo and what have you. They haven't resigned themselves from interest in political affairs but, rather, never got interested to begin with. This is pretty much exactly what big money and many politicians want, since it means they can get away with many things without much public scrutiny, as the ones who do show up are likely to follow whatever ideology the leader has deemed right. Not because they agree or have even thought about it, of course, but because the leader leads. Democracy is thus a working excuse as to why we should have capitalism because it has been thus de-fanged. Once upon a time, those with the deep pockets feared democracy, even Milton Friedman didn't like it - because people kept voting for stuff that was in their interest. Democracy was the enemy, has been perverted and defeated. They had to do that because, with democracy and a public that paid attention and showed up for the decision making, combined with increasing access to media and information, having politicians do their bidding quite as much as they liked became problematic, began looking more and more unlikely. They had to de-fang and pervert democracy because it worked. Maybe not perfectly, but it worked.
I'm not suggesting there was a conspiracy to do make this happen, no conspiracy was necessary. Market forces took care of it rather nicely.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 9:49 pm
by stiles
kitkat wrote:The German nazis didn't invent the term "concentration camp" and i used it in the *British* historical sense ...
Then maybe make that simple clarification the next time you use the term, OK? Because when you say "full blown concentration camp" by itself and without a qualifier like the above, people are (very understandably) going to think about the Holocaust.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:09 pm
by 12ci
FWIW I understood kitkat. maybe its a generational thing, or educational, or cultural, but I'm sure I'm not alone in understanding that a "concentration" camp is not the same as an "extermination" or "death" camp.

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 9:29 pm
by stiles
12ci wrote:FWIW I understood kitkat. maybe its a generational thing, or educational, or cultural, but I'm sure I'm not alone in understanding that a "concentration" camp is not the same as an "extermination" or "death" camp.
I didn't, and I've been nothing if not well educated. I also don't think the 3 of us are that far apart in age. Apparently the Nazis didn't make that distinction either, as Dachau, Auschwitz and Buchenwald are listed as "concentration camps" by the united states holocaust memorial museum website, among others. 1.2 million people were murdered in those three concentration camps alone.

See what I'm getting at here?

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 10:46 pm
by xtian
syntax Nazis !

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 8:43 am
by kitkat
DerGolgo wrote: Kitkat, you say that democracy is an illusion, popular movements change nothing because of what those within that movement want, but because of what that movement's leaders decide. The not-intelligent and/or not-sociopathic individual cannot affect any change, only the clever and the sociopaths are equipped to do that. There is no point in trying to address the masses to affect any change, and anything the masses may seem to desire is not, in fact, something they've picked, but what the intellopaths have picked.
The people who actually are clever enough to get it cannot do anything about it, not against the sheer mass of the "dumb", lead by the intelligent sociopaths. They are the actual victims around here.
Is that about right?
Yeh, that is human socio-political history in a nutshell. Small groups of clever, glib, manipulative fuckers running the show for the rest of the society they exploit for their own ends...From bluebloods and their monarchs, dictators and their warlords down to our "elected" elites with their unelected moneyed masters of modern capitalism. The severity of the oppression the masses deal with is also related directly to the resource picture--lots thereof and you have North America in the 17th, 18th, 19th and 20th centuries. Not much and you get N. Korea style.
I read boiling anger and despair in that post, but based on things you have previously expressed, I know you aren't with the crowd who's rationales this sounds a lot like.
No, you read steroidal level weltschmerz. I thought you were German? lol And no, i'm about as apolitical as it gets, personally. All that is pure abstraction. i live life on the micro level; the macro is on its own..it is just interesting to watch it work, that's all.
Broad social changes happen because the time is right,
Broad social changes happen because of changes in resource availability. The sole "broad social change" that has happened in the last 10,000 years is the enlightenment, which happened because of the discovery of a world of resources outside europe. The democracy thing happened because europeans found a couple of giant, rich sparsely populated continents right when they were refining the technology of repression & industrial level exploitation, made necessary because they had just about run their own course to ruin within their own exploited & threadbare landmass. So...a small portion of humanity ('mericans!! hoo-ah!) had a big ol' frontier freedom party for a couple hundred years with enough of about anything--energy, land, food, you name it, for all. Well, that's over now. We're back to the squeeze again. A planetary size pressure cooker. So the unimaginative of the topend are busily building more mechanisms of control and isolation, once again, while the imaginative types are plotting to get off the freakin' planet altogether (Elon buddy etc).
But activism can affect change.

Yeh, little stuff which is then writ large so the illusion of bottom up influence is preserved. People don't care to feel *completely* powerless--that's why so many fervently continue to believe that their vote & speech matters, lol!
Now, I don't want to paint Switzerland as some happy paradise
That place is so anomalous as to make me wonder if they are from the same planet as the rest of us. Then again, they too serve their purpose in the global scheme of things..money has to be safe somewhere, after all, even when the rest of the world goes off the deep end for a bit (as it is wont to do from time to time..and without any significant change as a result thereof from the tides of the past i'd note...)
They had to de-fang and pervert democracy because it worked. Maybe not perfectly, but it worked.
I'm not suggesting there was a conspiracy to do make this happen, no conspiracy was necessary. Market forces took care of it rather nicely.
Well, yeh, re; de-fanged, but not so sure it ever "worked"--i cannot think of any point in US history that was not utterly dominated by the choices of the elites of the time.

anyway, enough of this meaningless macro crap. Right now we first worlders can consider it background noise and celebrate our present good fortune in our respective micro worlds--because reality doesn't suck on *every* level, does it? --a slice of mine last Sunday to prove the point:

Image

not a bad gig, being a conscious entity in this universe for a bit, no? ;)

Re: Things to Do in DC When You're Dead

Posted: Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:14 am
by DerGolgo
Okay ... when I think about broad social changes, I think about stuff like gay rights, women's lib, legalizing pot ... you think of an entire age of civilization ...
And democracy wasn't really invented when the age of colonialism began.
The Swiss had been doing it for a while. Way, way, way before them, the Greeks did it.
Thing is that, without high-tech mass media like, well, the printed word, making it work on a larger scale than Swiss cantons and Greek city states was pretty much impossible. Any form of autocracy or what have you is much simpler and much more straight forward.
Democracy never ruled all the way, I doubt that it can. But society, politics, it's all forces pushing against each other in different directions. Democracy can push pretty fucking hard, which is why most rulers historically tried their darndest to prevent it, which is why business and politics even today try to fight it as hard as they can get away with.
The elected elites can only do as much as the electorate lets them do. Which is why armed gangs of thugs, secret police and what have you are the go-to purchases of any up-and-coming dictator. Not because the people would be inherently unlikely to oppose fascism or what have you, quite the opposite. But because the people might, because without a mechanism or repression they even could. When they do, they tend to follow leaders to do it, or leaders just start leading out of the blue, and things end up not much better than before. But the power is with the people. Or there'd be no point dumbing them down and distracting them. Heck, most people even have quite a desire to take part in democratic decision making processes, to make their voice heard. Unfortunately, they've got Simon Cowell's creations and Survivor and what have you as their methadone. But if they can see results in a hurry, if they do feel that these results have an influence on their lives, they'll not just get out and vote, they'll even pay attention to what there is to be voted on. It's just unfortunate the powers that be have managed to redirect these desires from the actual functioning of society to making yet another buck for the top 1%.

But yeah, with your MACRO definition of broad social change, stuff only changes when the circumstances change. But the leaders, the sociopaths in charge, the gilded classes ... they can only do so much to affect any changing circumstances. They can't decide global warming away, nor could they miracle overseas colonies into being (or have you heard of the flourishing dependency of Scotland, right there in the middle of Panama, lately?).
Currently, the powers that be are ever so busy making sure they can sue you for patent infringement if you do so much as talk about what their product looks like. I think this is a reaction to the ongoing trend of making technological capabilities more democratic and portable. Digital technology has made traditional mechanisms of distributing knowledge, or just communicating and stuff, the old scarcity models, entirely obsolete. And if I do want something on paper, I can do it on my own printer. I can even get it printed and bound into a perfectly legitimate looking paperback - Amazon offers such services. And, as usual, I end up with the manufacturing revolution. The idea of heavy capital investment for one plant that makes certain kinds of products may, in many fields, stop making sense in a few years. The plant will be as expensive as before, but instead of just extruded plastic goods like lawn chairs up to size x, it'll be so flexible that it'll make just about anything plastic - a spectacle frame right after a mobile-phone-case right after a soda bottle right after a cable-guide for a jet engine. When everybody can suddenly become a manufacturing concern, competition will get tricky for big, old, lumbering corporations. They don't much like competition, do they, hence all that patent nonsense. But such a change, when the access to the means of production becomes common, that might bring some more social change, might it not?