life philosophy runs into the Joneses...

[Rench]

One of those way the fuck out there nothing to do with bikes thoughts/questions...

So I'm a pretty fiscally conservative fellow. I actually moved into a slightly smaller house a few years ago because it was cheaper, and had a lot of things I do like (huge yard, detached garage, fantastic schools, good neighborhood with several close friends already there, etc). The house is far from perfect, but its coming along. I work hard when I have the time, and dream hard when I don't (mostly the latter). And even my plans are pretty quaint really, nothing audacious. A one room addition on the back, some new siding, update the kitchen, etc.

I hoped it would provide two things for my kids: 1, a house small enough that they'd rather go outside to play anyway, and 2, maybe when older, they'd appreciate the example of living well within one's means.

After moving in, I got to know some great neighbors, was able to refinance down to a 15 year mortgage, and really kinda develop a long term plan around the fact that I'll have no more mortgage payments years before I retire, and hell, before either of my kids gets to a university. And we're all on the same page, and we're a happy fiscally forward thinking family.

But living a stones throw from 3 close friends has made exactly 0 difference in how much I see them. Possibly a negative difference in a feeling of almost resentment that they were some of the reasons I moved here, but I can't get an appointment on their busy schedules, or vice versa. Then, 3 of my awesome neighbors, including 2 of Renchlette's good friends are moving away this summer.

Then, today, Mrs Rench had a short work meeting, so I drove her there and instead of taking the new puppy to the forest preserve right behind her hospital, I park in the neighborhood on a whim.

I'm trying to teach the little bastard to walk on a leash, which isn't going great, but I'm also just stunned at how beautiful the neighborhood is. Well developed shade trees on every parkway, really nice houses, bigger than I usually go for, but hey, there's a brick ranch! A little upscale but solid and simple and hey! It's for sale... With the front porch like I keep talking about laying out... And the master suite that is far beyond what I could turn my one room addition into... But the backyard, its a fucking postage stamp. I actually felt some pang of want start to fade as I regarded the tiny backyard. Then my eyes refocused beyond the yard.



It backs up to if not the largest, then somewhere in the top 5 largest forest preserves in Cook County. Literally could step over the split rail fence onto one of the MILES of paved trails and all of 300 yards from a massive lake for canoeing or fishing.

I have to admit, the forest preserve just about had me frothing at the mouth. Of course, all this comes at a price. Its an expected and fair price, but at the hairy ass-end of what we could afford.

So I talk to the Renchlette first, cause I moved a lot when I was younger, and was good and traumatized by some of it. And she said 2 things that blew me away. First, she wouldn't mind moving. I pointed out new school. All different friends, etc. No sweat from her. Second, she said "our living room is a little small in this house...". From the mouths of babes. My 6 year old already aware that our house is pretty simple.

Then, I talk to Mrs Rench, and she actually says "I'm not going to stop you from buying us a bigger house".



Well wtf? I'm starting to think my dream of a little and responsible fiscal footprint was just mine. I mean, am I wrong? Everyone else always buys as much house as they can possibly afford and plan on working unto death. Maybe I'm the one out here in left field buying small and planning on a good retirement? Or more honestly, am I robbing my kids and wife of some lifestyle they've earned in the fancy house I'll be paying for for a decade after I'd rather be retired?

I'm just starting to doubt my own plans, and being catholic, that means you find a way to feel guilty about it.

So, discuss, or advise or something, if you made it this far.

-Rench

[xtian]

I once had the same guilt and the same idea of non ostentatious belongings and social conscience of living in a popular area. Now I have a big ass house, having a project together made our relation stronger and guilt dissolved in lots of sun and alcohol in the garden and long walk in the nice old person's neighborhood. I needed to feel that I could still evolve and not rot in my shitty little house. I still can see a lot of houses that are a lot bigger than mine and nicer neighborhoods for older people so it's all a matter of boundaries and adaptation in the end.

[calamari kid]

Can you swing holding onto the old place and renting it out? What's the rental market like there, could you get your existing mortgage payment out of it in rent? Property is almost always a good investment.

[DerGolgo]

I think the major question you must ask yourself is: is it worth it?
Would such a move increase your gross happiness?
Will the bigger place with the amazing landscape beyond make you happier than a bigger mortgage and working a bit longer to pay it off will make you unhappy?
Just for hits and shiggles, try and make a lowbal offer maybe? You can always go up, but once the seller has maybe moved down a bit ...

If you keep the old place, keep in mind you'd be somebody's landlord. That is the kind of thing that requires a little ... effort.

[GeekGrl]

Don't do it.

Taking on a larger and longer mortgage payment because you WANT to (even though you "just barely could afford to") does not make it a sound financial move. There are so many benefits to your existing frugal fiscal plan that it is hard to imagine there being any genuine benefit to taking on such a long-term financial burden. You already own property, trading it in for more costly property isn't changing the benefits of owning property, its just adding risk and financial burden to your family.

The thoughtful reasoning behind your existing plan remains valid, even though your wife and daughter now "wouldn't mind" a larger home. But did you ask the right questions of them? Don't just ask what they GAIN by moving to a new home, but rather what they stand to LOSE by your family taking on a longer/larger mortgage. The benefits of owning your own home outright in less than 15 years is HUGE! Is the larger home, even with the expansive nature preserve at your backdoor step, really BETTER for your family than the financial security your current home and financial situation provide them?

And when you think "we could afford that larger mortgage" don't forget to factor in ALL the additional expenses of a larger home. Higher utilities, additional upkeep time/money, unknown maintenance/repair needs, higher property taxes, higher insurance, and unless you can put down 20% cash, the addition of PMI to your mortgage payment. After all of that, will you still be able to take the SAME number/level of family holidays, put aside the same amount for retirement/tuition/emergency, go out to dinner the same number of times/places ... in other words, what quality of life sacrifices will be made in homage to the Jones's house and mortgage?

Maybe the answer to the quality of life sacrifice is "not much difference" and the bigger house/bigger mortgage sounds doable. But if you want to do true due diligence on such a decision, particularly embarking on it from a previously frugal financial mindset, what is the impact to your family of that larger mortgage in the event of injury, job loss, other personal/family/financial disaster?

[Pintgudge]

Yeah, things DO happen.

We bought our house in 2008 at the pinnacle of pricing, just before the bubble burst. It was O.K. Though, because we both had good jobs, and I was able to work full time throughout the resession.

She was not so lucky though. She got laid off four+ years ago! then two+ years ago after running out unemployment and job re-training (which wasn't helpful), she was going to use some inheritance and go to Italy to learn mosaic techniques. She took an antibiotic to relieve a nasal infection for the long flight, and it killed all of the stuff, even the ones we need. Serious near death illness, loss of mental function, still not recovered, maybe won't, depression, etc.

We were almost out of savings, using some every month to meet bills, now I'm working ten hour days and it's O.K., but that will stop in the fall.

Stuff does happen, and I think your previous plan had a better handle on life's variables.

[Sisyphus]

The first plan seems better. I have a friend who is probably about $1M in debt. Granted, he has a successful business and all but if things go south...
The grass will always be greener, my friend. Always.

[Bo_9]

I second the first plan until you can more than comfortably afford the payment along with everything that goes with it.
We moved from a 1200 sqft house with a 1200 sqft detached garage/shop (priorities at the time) to a 3000 sqft with attached two-car and detached 20x20. It was well justified at the time because an infant and a toddler in what was really a one bedroom house just wasn't going to work. Our payment more than tripled. It was unpleasant after the new wore off for quite a while. But, over the last five years since the move we've paid off everything but the house (cars, bikes, cards) and refinanced to drop a few percent on the mortgage, cut ten years off the term and lower the payment. it has come at the severe cost of driving older cars, still rocking the big projection TV and no cable. I'm not really sure those are negatives though.
In hindsight we should have just added on to the old tiny house we had, the cost of a sizable addition would have been around half of the newer house and out payment would have "only" doubled.

[Mk3]

You forgot to mention the garage...what does the garage look like?

Seriously though, I miss my acreage desperately, BUT realistically I miss the surrounding liberty that went with it, I don't actually want that chunk of dirt in North Dakota. You'll still be in the PRI:C, and you may face additional regulation being up against the forest preserve, though it mostly beat being highway fodder like you are now. The size of the house has less to do with you getting outside than you're own drive to un-ass the couch. If you want the kiddo outside, chuck her ass outside; and better yet lead by example--shit you taught me that. You have the remote site for natural wonders, how often do you think you'll actually get out there?

To be fair, I think your house sucks, but it's your house. You couldn't pay me to take my parent's house, but its still home, because that's where I grew up, and that's where they are. It has great potential, this one will be a fresh start and take more time to become home. What does nurse ratchet think of the current home (honestly)?