JACKBOOTED THUGS

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Mk3
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Mk3 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:19 pm

DerGolgo wrote: On the other hand, sexual offenders are often easily forgiven by the general public, so he might have stuck around. Banishment in this context means what I think it means, doesn't it?
He abused his authority, that and the sex offense are grounds for neutering in my book. I'm glad he got shellacked. Further let's consider the extraordinary likelihood that this singularly identified offense is not the only time he's done this. He's probably pulled this shit numerous times, possibly some of that came out in trial (or behind closed doors), and they are keeping him away from the people he's wronged. Maybe protect the town from further scrutiny too (though fuck that department), and on the fringes maybe keep him from getting killed by angry husbands.


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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:41 am

Considering how quick he was to admit to blackmailing her, he must either have been a total moron trying this for the first time. Which all things in this matter seem to indicate against, indeed.
Or he had done this so often, he felt he knew how the rest of the conversation was going, and he just decided to get to the point before wasting any more time. Accepting to have this on his record forever more does suggest he feared other stuff would come out in court.

One can but hope that, wherever he moves in the future, it'll be a place where, for the rest of his life, he'll have to personally inform every single one of his neighbors of what he did. And that, with that stain on his record, the only sort of job he'll be able to get will force him to live in the kind of neighborhood where people are disinclined to like police officers to begin with, and will have particular appreciation of a dirtbag cop abusing his office as he did. Make his whole life real damn unpleasant.
"Okay, so you're reporting an assault, you got beat up by your neighbor, let me just... hang on... oh, you used to be one of us? Well, brother, we'll sure... hang on... you fucking did WHAT? Dirtbags like you is why we have to wear body cams and attend all those fucking seminar! You know what, fuck you. Your neighbor was evidently acting in self-defense. Fuck off, or I'll arrest you, and I'll let anyone in the tank know that you used to be a dirty cop!"
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Bigshankhank » Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:03 am

Speaking of jackbooted thugs, the fmr mayor of New York City Rudy G posted a 911 appreciation ad featuring literally that very thing. A grizzled cop in riot gear facing off against protesters remembering all of the things that inspired him to swear fealty to the badge, going backwards in time all the way to watching the news on 09-11-01 as a small boy. Then at the end he brings his consciousness back to the present, and I shit you not, whips out his baton in preparation for some skull cracking.
We are in such a fucked up place right now.
It's time for Humankind to ditch the imaginary friends of our species' childhood and grow the fuck up.
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Let me sacrifice your soul to the ruler of darkness

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:51 am

This makes me slightly nauseous.
Cato Institute wrote:Eleventh Circuit Grants Immunity to Officer Who Shot Child Lying on the Ground
The Eleventh Circuit’s decision in Corbitt v. Vickers, handed down last week, constitutes one of the most grotesque and indefensible applications of the qualified immunity I’ve ever seen. The case involves a claim of excessive force against Michael Vickers, a deputy sheriff in Coffee County, Georgia, who shot a ten-year-old child lying on the ground, while repeatedly attempting to shoot a pet dog that wasn’t posing any threat. Without even deciding the constitutional question, a majority of the Eleventh Circuit panel granted qualified immunity to Vickers, simply because there was no case on point with this particular set of facts.

The key facts as alleged in the complaint are as follows: Vickers and other officers were pursuing a criminal suspect, Christopher Barnett, when Barnett wandered into the backyard of Amy Corbitt (who had no relation to Barnett). At the time, one adult and six minor children were in the yard, and the officers demanded they all get on the ground. Everyone immediately complied, and the police took Barnett into custody.

But then, the family’s pet dog Bruce walked into the scene. Without provocation or any immediate threat, Vickers fired his weapon at Bruce. His first shot missed, and Bruce retreated under the home. About ten seconds later, Bruce reappeared and approached his owners, and Vickers fired again – missing once more, but this time striking Corbitt’s ten-year-old child, who was at the time still lying on the ground only 18 inches away. The bullet tore through the back of the child’s knee, causing serious injuries. The child suffered severe pain and mental trauma and has to receive ongoing care from an orthopedic surgeon.

...

FULL STORY HERE: https://www.cato.org/blog/eleventh-circ ... ying-shoot" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A 10-year-old kid. Lying on the ground in compliance with cop's orders. On his own property. No consequences for the fuckwit cop shooting at what was apparently a harmless dog.

We don't only have a problem with the cops here, we have problems with the fucking courts. (And I don't see that getting better any time soon.)

--Jaeger
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Thu Oct 03, 2019 1:54 pm

What the fuck?
At what point are cops just gonna be declared to be above the law?

I read news these days about that woman who walked into somebody else's house and just short the person to death, in that person's home, to which she had not been invited.

10 years inside for a cop probably isn't going to be pleasant, and one might make the argument that it will be equivalent to a non-cop serving a much longer sentence.
But how fucked up it that I read that, about a person who fucking broke into her neighbor's house and shot him to death in his home. And I'm a little surprised any time was handed down at all?

She will eligible for parole in five years, and I can't see her failing that. That doesn't quite sound like justice to me.

I wonder how this might have gone if he had had a gun in his home, and had short the armed intruder. Presumably, he'd be on death row for killing a cop. Why would she have entered his home if she hadn't had a good, police reason.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:57 pm

DerGolgo wrote:What the fuck?
At what point are cops just gonna be declared to be above the law?
Have you been paying any attention to the shit going on at the very tippy top of the American judicial system? There's a whole fuckin' legion of people out there who are apparently above the law.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:49 am

Jaeger wrote:
Have you been paying any attention to the shit going on at the very tippy top of the American judicial system? There's a whole fuckin' legion of people out there who are apparently above the law.

--Jaeger
I have been paying attention.
And I wasn't talking about anyone thinking themselves to be above the law, nor about anyone being treated like they're above the law.

Let me rephrase:
At what point are cops et al just gonna be openly and explicitly declared and legislated to be above the law?
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

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Jaeger
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:14 am

DerGolgo wrote: Let me rephrase:
At what point are cops et al just gonna be openly and explicitly declared and legislated to be above the law?
It's a good question. I dunno if you caught it over there, but last year a Texas cop was going back to her apartment at the end of her shift, walked into wrong apartment, freaked out, and "accidentally" killed a guy sitting in his own home watching TV and eating ice cream.

She was convicted of murder, but she got a very light sentence of 10 years (with possibility of parole in 5).

Had that been any other normal person they'd be facing life in prison.

There's something terribly wrong with the way we're training cops in America. They are apparently way too willing to ventilate everybody they meet. :shock:

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
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2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Bigshankhank » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:02 am

Jaeger wrote:
DerGolgo wrote: Let me rephrase:
At what point are cops et al just gonna be openly and explicitly declared and legislated to be above the law?
It's a good question. I dunno if you caught it over there, but last year a Texas cop was going back to her apartment at the end of her shift, walked into wrong apartment, freaked out, and "accidentally" killed a guy sitting in his own home watching TV and eating ice cream.

She was convicted of murder, but she got a very light sentence of 10 years (with possibility of parole in 5).

Had that been any other normal person they'd be facing life in prison.

There's something terribly wrong with the way we're training cops in America. They are apparently way too willing to ventilate everybody they meet. :shock:

--Jaeger
Look back to recruiting videos from social media back in the immediate post 9-11 years and you'll see why. They were actively seeking people with the impression that they would be given carte blanche to play out their Judge Dredd fantasies with dogs and body armor and such. Slowly I think departments are starting to realize that they ended up with latent sociopaths and they have essentially lost an entire generation of officers, both those who actually are living out their authoritarian fantasies and those who won't even sign up to serve alongside them. Not to mention the loss of public trust.
It's time for Humankind to ditch the imaginary friends of our species' childhood and grow the fuck up.
-Davros

"Lasse mich deine Seele dem Herrscher der Finsternis opfern"

Let me sacrifice your soul to the ruler of darkness

Always carry a bottle of whiskey when you travel in case of a snakebite. Futhermore, always carry a small snake.

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:10 am

Bigshankhank wrote: Look back to recruiting videos from social media back in the immediate post 9-11 years and you'll see why...
... Not to mention the loss of public trust.
I'm afraid you're right. It fits with my general observation that Bin Laden was successful in driving American insane. This is one of the consequences. The so-called War on Crime in the 80s-90s didn't help either.

When I was in school I worked as a student aid for the university PD and got to meet folks who're planning on going into policing. Far too many of them were just itching to bust, desperate to get the badge and the gun and power.

I hope you're right and police departments are realizing that they've gone off the deep end, and in so doing made their problems worse (i.e., alienated civilians). They wouldn't have to be quite so fucking paranoid all the time if they didn't go around treating the rest of the population as the enemy.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Sat Oct 05, 2019 6:44 am

Jaeger wrote: It's a good question. I dunno if you caught it over there, but last year a Texas cop was going back to her apartment at the end of her shift, walked into wrong apartment, freaked out, and "accidentally" killed a guy sitting in his own home watching TV and eating ice cream.

She was convicted of murder, but she got a very light sentence of 10 years (with possibility of parole in 5).

Had that been any other normal person they'd be facing life in prison.

There's something terribly wrong with the way we're training cops in America. They are apparently way too willing to ventilate everybody they meet. :shock:

--Jaeger
Yeah, I did catch that. That's a main point as to why I asked the question.
I mean, what would have happened if he had had a gun, and had defended himself, under the "Castle Doctrine" that her defense had tried to use.
I'm sure he'd be on death row.

And all that hugging. Everybody was hugging her so much, the collected press photos do make it look like it wasn't a criminal trial. But a crying child being disciplined.
I mean, it's okay that the dead man's family have forgiven her. That's their business.
But the rule of law can't be allowed to be subordinate to sentimentality. Nor can it be allowed to grant the enforcers of the law special privilege. If anything, if a cop breaks the law, he or she should be looking at a harsher sentence. Other people don't take an oath to uphold the law, while a cop does.
And I can't imagine any parole board won't look at how horrible prison must be for a cop, and not even question granting parole for one second.
She walked into another person's home, uninvited, and killed him. Ten fucking years, out in five? That's fucking bullshit.
Bigshankhank wrote:
Look back to recruiting videos from social media back in the immediate post 9-11 years and you'll see why. They were actively seeking people with the impression that they would be given carte blanche to play out their Judge Dredd fantasies with dogs and body armor and such. Slowly I think departments are starting to realize that they ended up with latent sociopaths and they have essentially lost an entire generation of officers, both those who actually are living out their authoritarian fantasies and those who won't even sign up to serve alongside them. Not to mention the loss of public trust.
On top of that. From what I understand, among the Pentagon's greatest customers for surplus equipment are police departments across the USA. Which are also building up so many SWAT teams, they use them to deliver subpoenas, iirc.
Even in a high crime area, why the fuck do the cops need MRAPs? Why the fuck were there fucking self-propelled SAM batteries at the DAPPLE protests?! Were they expected the protesters to bring attack helicopters?!
When your only tool is a hammer.
While I recall reading that in firearms training, the pop-up targets are often designed to resemble stereotypical black, urban "thugs". When you train someone to kill specific targets, that's what they are going to do.
I can't imagine that even those cops who joined before 911, who aren't, or at least weren't, fucking sociopaths, would not be driven into more violent states of mind.

I recall reading about a US police chief who, by changing tactics and training, reduced fatal shootings by police officers in his city from some two figure number to zero. I can't find that article right now, but a few appear to be making efforts and progress:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/pos ... shootings/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I find this quote telling:
Wesley Lowery on washingtonpost.com wrote:Several of the chiefs noted that they anticipate, or have already seen, significant resistance from their officers and local police unions to an attempt to change policies or to hold officers more accountable. Milwaukee Police Chief Edward Flynn, who said that officers need to be disciplined more consistently for violating policing policy, recalled the anger he provoked with his decision to fire the police officer who shot and killed Dontre Hamilton, a mentally ill man who was asleep on a park bench.
I remember when, where I work, someone decided to give employee-only cable and broadband plans to all his friends and family. When it came out, and it was proven that he had defrauded the company for thousands, the union didn't dare make a fuss. More the opposite.
And this guy didn't just steal money. He killed a sleeping man. To me, that sounds like murder.

Thing about treating someone like an enemy all the time. They will become your enemy, eventually.
I have the impression some decision makers in US police are working out that, when protecting the public and ensuring members of that public can rely on living in a lawful society, by enforcing the law, is their job description.
Yet the public views them as enemies, violent thugs, and will more likely protect a criminal than expose someone to getting shot dead for sleeping on a park bench, or suchlike.
Then, no matter how many arrests they make, they have failed their job, haven't they.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:06 am

A buddy of mine who has experience working as a police dispatcher and knows cops very well has an interesting idea vis-a-vis police shooting: As a cop, if you shoot someone you can no longer be a cop. Give them some incentive to not shoot and to think a little harder before they get all trigger happy.

Do you really fear for your life, Mr. Policeman? Then by all means, fire away, but understand that if you kill someone -- even if it's justified -- you'll receive a severance package of some kind then you're no longer a cop. Maybe they put you in administration? I dunno, it's his idea, but the point is that you don't get to have the gun any more. Given that most cops go through their careers without killing anyone this shouldn't be too much of an imposition... right?

It'a a goofy idea but it has at least some merit. There needs to be some concrete disincentive.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by motorpsycho67 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:26 pm

Jaeger wrote: It's a goofy idea
That's grossly understating it..... and I HATE cops.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Thu Oct 10, 2019 3:58 am

motorpsycho67 wrote:
Jaeger wrote: It's a goofy idea
That's grossly understating it..... and I HATE cops.
I, too, have no sympathy for the fuckers. There's exactly one cop I'll give the benefit of the doubt, and he used to be on this here board.

Loosing your job, your career, your prospects, for defending your life. When that job specifically entails entering life-threatening situations so others don't have to. That rubs up on my sense of fairness, and I loathe having to consider such a measure unfair to those bastards.
And if you could get it implemented, you'd be looking at situations where, if a cop does get killed, everyone and their grandmother is gonna blame that measure for why the dead cop didn't shoot first to save his life. In the end, it might backfire, with the measure being discontinued, and cops feeling "off the leash", feeling justified in shooting to kill even more than they do now.

Thinking about it, I wonder if an appropriate measure might be two guns. No, I have not thought this through, but hear me out.

Suppose any cop had to carry two guns. One loaded with deadly bullets - the other with rubber bullets (and, ideally, rubber bullets further optimized to be non-lethal and non-maiming than existing types).

Suggestion 1: the holster for the lethal gun is secured in some manner that requires the non-lethal gun being drawn first. So that, by the time the cop had lethal force available if needed, he'd already have non-lethal force in hand. Odds are, in a high-adrenaline situation, the cop would try to resolve the situation with the non-lethal bird in his hand.

Suggestion 2: don't try to elaborately engineer something that wouldn't be idiot-proof, nor malice-proof, to begin with. Few things are.
Just give them a non-lethal option that is easier to use than the lethal option. Would that stop all police killings? No.
But if your only tool is a hammer. If lethal force is all a cop has to credibly threaten a person more than a few feet away (think range of TASER or pepper-spray), or in a position to add sufficient distance in the blink of an eye, than lethal force is almost certainly what that cop is gonna end up resorting to.
Give cops a non-lethal option that, unlike a TASER, allows multiple shots in quick succession, and unlike pepper spray, isn't liable to incapacitate them like it should the suspect, like when the wind is blowing the wrong way. And, obviously, fucking train them to preferentially use the less-than-lethal option. And I think they will.

There should be something so the cops won't immediately go for the lethal weapon. Like making the less-than-gun so that they won't worry about just dropping it when they do have to go lethal. Simple solution: do like the Mounties did in recent memory, have the gun on a lanyard. So that they don't have to spend time on re-holstering, and know in advance they won't have to.
There are a number of other measures that one might add.
Engineer it so it can only fire rubber bullets, so that lethal bullets won't fit (which would also avoid "mistakes" by "overworked" cops). Make the gun so that a child isn't likely to discharge it while playing around (confounding unfamiliar shooters with the funky grip-cock was, I recall reading, greatly appreciate by police departments that adopted the HK P7, as many cops who get shot are shot with their own service-weapon). Make sure people know they can get a reward for handing in a recovered less-than-gun, put a keyfinder-thingy on it, paint it in UV-reactive paint. A bunch of obvious measures that remind them, any time they draw it, that they will be able to recover it if lost. Also make it so that they know, if they do have to go lethal, and they do have to drop it, and can justify either, even if just barely, they won't even get a reprimand, let alone actual trouble.

There already exists at least one shotgun with two separate magazine tubes (the "Neostead 2000") that, afaik, would let the use choose from which to chamber a shell. I can imagine other mechanisms for allowing the use of two separate magazine tubes with rapid switching between the two. Make it so that the action will only load shorter shells from one tube, perhaps of a length not commercially available to civilians, and issue the less-than-lethal stuff, beanbags or whatever, in that shorter size. Boom, no way to accidentally load lethal in the less-than magazine. Make some design alterations so that, when the cop grabs the gun from the clamp in the car, it will always and only ever be set to the less-than-lethal magazine.
Yeah, the cop could just switch to lethal.
But he might not. He might actually be more likely not to.

To round it off, and to discourage the use of lethal force when unnecessary. And to discourage a gaggle of cops pouring forty rounds into a single suspect. Make them justify each round of lethal ammo. Make them sign for every single bullet or shotgun shell. Perhaps issue only micro-stamped ammo, so they can't get cute and bring their own, and so that they know they can't get cute like that. Make the paperwork they must file for every lethal round they discharge such a bureaucratic nightmare, they associate them with hours and hours of overtime, just filling out paperwork. Make sure that the paperwork is actually reviewed by somebody, and that they know it will be. Make every cop who tries to use deadly force for less than legit reasons but doesn't actually harm anybody sit through days and days of mind-numbing seminars, and make it so they must fly a desk for a while, with no overtime, night-duty, whatever bonuses they might expect to take home otherwise. Make them dread having to use lethal force. Like any human being who isn't a fucking violent sociopath should.
Since a dead suspect should require a lot of paperwork already, making them dread the paperwork for using lethal bullets shouldn't keep anyone from protecting their own life, or the life of somebody else.

At the same time, don't hand out the less-than-lethal ammo in ammo-boxes or anything. Get is packaged in bags, like potato chips. Bags labeled not with the number of rounds therein, but like "Beanbags, 12 ga., 2 lbs.". Or "Rubber bullets, 9x19 mm, 1 quart". Yes, using obsolete imperial measures. Because a) people understand those better, I believe, and b) it would underline how those are not military. The US military has been metric for donkey's years, afaik, and I have read a number of plausible sounding expert opinions that it's the militarization of the police, with SWAT teams in MRAPs outnumbering regular patrol cops and all that shite, that is making lethal police violence more and more likely. If your only tool is a hammer.

All of which relies on some mechanism to identify whether resorting to lethal force had been justified or not. Body cams, for a start, that won't so easily "malfunction unexpectedly", or won't work because of a full memory card, or whatever. Whether or not the cop had a good reason to resort to lethal force should be the yardstick, and it shouldn't be left to a group of people who couldn't even figure out how to avoid jury duty.

What is probably easiest, quickest, and most effective to implement would be training, though.
Proper training for policework. I recall reading of one police chief in California (iirc) who reduced the number of lethal shootings by his force from a low double-digit number per year to zero. Can't find that article right now, but I did find this one:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/ ... story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think cops may be slowly figuring out that, when the people they ostensibly serve and protect must expect to get shot dead for no justifiable reason, or to die in custody, these people will see cops as the enemy. And even those who won't see them like that aren't likely to grass on anyone they don't want to see dead. While I'd bet that, in some cities of the US, police are already the unwitting enforcers for gang bosses, and are fighting gang-wars. At least since the original Freakonomics, nobody should be under any illusion that gangsters are somehow stupid. Getting anyone killed they can't or won't kill themselves, when there is a perfectly murderous police department available, shouldn't be beyond many gangsters.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

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Jaeger
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Thu Nov 14, 2019 10:06 pm

I've been following this story since it happened (it's not far from me) and it's fucking horrifying.

In short: The U.S. Park Police shot an unarmed 25-year-old accountant [LINK]. The DOJ stonewalled regarding the "investigation" for 2 years and just declared today that they will close the case with no charges against the officers.
WaPo wrote:THE DISGRACE of the foot-dragging, stonewalling, shoulder-shrugging two-year FBI investigation into the unwarranted killing of an unarmed man near the District by U.S. Park Police officers in November 2017 has now reached a contemptible travesty of a climax: a decision Wednesday by federal prosecutors to close the case with no charges

The victim, Bijan Ghaisar, a charismatic, football-loving 25-year-old accountant beloved by his many friends and family, was shot repeatedly in the head by a pair of officers after his vehicle was rear-ended in a minor fender bender in the Northern Virginia suburbs. As is obvious from dash-cam video footage of the incident, the officers brandished their weapons for no good reason and opened fire even though Ghaisar posed no threat to them or anyone else.

The killing amounted to an execution by officers sworn to uphold the law, who appeared exasperated that Ghaisar, perhaps terrified that the officers had approached him with guns drawn, drove off twice after being stopped before the final, fatal encounter. To be clear: Exasperation does not give police a license to kill. Or at least — we would have thought until this decision that it does not. ...

TODAY'S LINK
Quote from an article earlier this year for context:
WaPo wrote:The incident began when Ghaisar suddenly stopped his Jeep Grand Cherokee in a lane of the parkway in Alexandria City, Va., at about 7:30 p.m., a Park Police traffic report states. His Jeep was struck from behind by a Toyota Corolla driven by an Uber driver, who reported that Ghaisar did not acknowledge him but instead drove away. The Uber driver and passenger reported the incident and the license plate of the Jeep that was struck: “BIJAN.”
We live in fucked-up times.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
2018 Indian Scout -- "Lilah"

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:45 am

Just coming back to this, a half-formed idea has... half-formed?

I recently learned about a neat approach that a (famous in hacker circles, apparently) security consultant takes to help the companies that hire him establish a "security culture".
The problem he resolves: Imagine you're at work. You see someone in a sharp suit, but without his employee badge, not even with a visitor's badge. Will you challenge him, demand to see his ID?
No, you don't, because that's how you piss off someone who's about sixteen tiers above you in the corporate hierarchy, and will fire you so hard, your grandkids will be born unemployable.
Imagine you see someone in shirtsleeves, with a toolbox, maybe a notebook under his arm, cables dangling from his pockets, a clipboard under one arm. You're not likely to ask him for his ID. Heck. Most people will open the building's back door to let him in. Most security guards will probably let him in the front door if he plays it right, and will buzz him through the barrier if he knows the name of a single person working inside.

Besides anything else, unless you're the security guy, challenging people without a visible ID isn't your job, is it.

The solution comes in three parts, two of which should be applicable.
The non-applicable (I think) part
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is that the guy 16 tiers higher in the corporate hierarchy, when caught without his ID, won't rip the poor guy's head off for challenging him. Instead, he will shake her hand, acknowledge her exemplary behavior, make sure everybody (or at least a few) see him congratulating her and validating her actions. And then he does the penance that anyone who has an employee badge but is caught without must do: go to the lobby, sign out a (garishly colored) visitor's pass, and wear it on a lanyard for the rest of the day, where everybody can see his shame.
Now, the bits I think might be applied here. It's about positive reinforcement.
1st part: Instant reward.
Management made it known that anyone who catches an illicit intruder will receive an instant and substantial reward. No great debates or nothing, just a nice bit of cash, or a few days or a week of extra paid vacay. Something.
Also, at random times, there will be strangers in the building, without an ID, who are there on behalf of management - to test the staff's response to an ID-less stranger. Whoever catches him first, boom, reward. I think he mentioned that, in that case, the testing stranger should just hand over a (small) ward of cash, in the view of everybody else in that office.
"That's not fair that Jane gets that money, just for being the first to challenge him for his ID... next time, I will do it, oh, you just wait!"
He also mentioned CEOs actually playing the testing character, specifically so that no one on staff would fear getting in trouble for challenging the wrong person.
When there's an instant reward, people get greedy. Greed makes stuff happen.

2nd part: Competition.
Have a big old leaderboard in the office. With the names of whoever caught the last guy, whoever was it when getting caught took the least time after the tester entered the building, etc.
Add photos of staff getting their cash rewards.
And suddenly, instead of just greed, you've got greed and competition. People not just competing to get the money, but to get the social cache that comes with being the winner. They have to compete for the objective to get that and, apparently, they will.

The combination of these measures is apparently far, far more effective than punishing people involved with a security violation. It's positive, and you can't really complain about it that much.

Now, applying this to armed police.
Many different ways of doing it.
"Precinct 10 finished off the year with the fewest shots fired. Good job! Everyone gets two days of extra vacation!" That one is part of not-quite thinking it out, since it may appear unfair to cops that they get punished (in the eyes of many/most, not being rewarded is equal to being punished).
Or maybe a little electronic timer on each cop's holster. Reward time spent with the gun holstered.
Offer a big cash reward for every time that cops manage to convince a perp to surrender, as proven by bodycam footage, and they can cuff him and take him away without "having" to pile on/beat/kick him. Hm, I could make this go a lot quicker if I just beat him in the face with my truncheon... but then I won't get the $100 bonus for making the non-violent apprehension. I'd rather have those $100. Let's just talk to him for another five minutes, easy $100 to make.
And once again, a leaderboard in each precinct, letting everybody know who's the least violent, and hence best rewarded, cop.

I doubt any technical solution can compete with people's greed and lust for glory. The latter, in particular, seems to be one of the reasons so many violent thugs go into police work and proceed to police violently.
But maybe combine it with me prior suggestion about less-than-lethal alternatives. So that, when they do have to escalate the situation, they aren't likely to immediately escalate into lethal force.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Bigshankhank » Fri Nov 15, 2019 5:24 am

That's an interesting concept, but one of the biggest issues with that is getting police forces to adopt body cams to begin with. Once THAT happens, its a matter of getting officers to actually use them properly. Unfortunately the violent thugs who want to police violently will be the last adopters of this technology and technique, and of course they will be the ones most in need of it, at least from society's point of view. Frankly I think there should be a disincentive for officers for NOT using the body or dash cams, say dock an officer's pay for every traffic stop of arrest made where the device is not used or used improperly.
Of course, another viable (IMO) option would be to go back to the old way of locking lethal firearms in the trunk of patrol cars, or even a specially designed frunk compartment up by the hood or bumper of the car. While certain situations may escalate instantaneously and leave an officer vulnerable though they would still have batons and non-lethal weapons such as a TASER, I would think officers would be more inclined to deescalate every situation if they knew they were outgunned just standing there. Further, they could adapt their encounter strategy in order to leave an officer with the car in quick reach of greater weaponry while the lead officer keeps escape avenues open and accessible, much like we do while riding. In other words, reduce the brute force techniques currently en vogue.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Fri Nov 15, 2019 6:33 am

Bigshankhank wrote:That's an interesting concept, but one of the biggest issues with that is getting police forces to adopt body cams to begin with. Once THAT happens, its a matter of getting officers to actually use them properly. Unfortunately the violent thugs who want to police violently will be the last adopters of this technology and technique, and of course they will be the ones most in need of it, at least from society's point of view. Frankly I think there should be a disincentive for officers for NOT using the body or dash cams, say dock an officer's pay for every traffic stop of arrest made where the device is not used or used improperly.
That'd be the beauty of requiring confirming bodycam footage for a non-violent-arrest bonus. Those who aren't violent thugs will pretty surely want the money. While a bunch of the thugs will want the money, and don't even recognize how violent they are. They would learn, quickly. At that point, when proper bodycam footage is worth additional money in people's pockets, those fucks who will rather be violent will stand out like a sore thumb. And positive reinforcement will likely motivate the rest of the blue wall of silence to avoid pulling duty with these people. "I make an extra $200 a months from the peaceful-apprehension bonus, I don't wanna loose that because Frank figures the uniform is a license for violence!".
The union may be up in arms about fines and punishments (even if those are justified). But when it's about a bonus, union members might decide cleaning house (of violent thugs) is the way to cash in.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:00 am

Something to consider:
NYT wrote:I found out I was in a gang database — a shared criminal intelligence system used by policing agencies to store information on identified gang members — in 1996 after a dozen members of the Los Angeles Police Department crashed through my front door. The officers were from an anti-gang and graffiti task force and the arrest warrant identified me as a leader of not one, but two, graffiti gangs. When I found out that officers had torn through my family’s apartment looking for spray paint and markers as per the search warrant, it reminded me of the actual gang members who had done the same just a few years earlier.

As a local graffiti writer I had spent my adolescence running from gangs that resented how “taggers” like me wrote in the neighborhoods they claimed as their own. Now I was labeled a gang member. I had been labeled a gang member because I must have looked like one. Or it may have been because a judge is more likely to issue a warrant for a kid in a gang than a kid who writes on walls. I will never be sure. I was a vandal, but I was not in a gang, and the legal consequences for each are vastly different.

At my arraignment, my “gang” identity was brought up to frame the many charges for vandalism I was facing. Like the more than 94 percent of state-level felony defendants in America, I plea-bargained and received a fine, probation and community service, but avoided jail time. It was the gang label, not the criminal charges, that scared me most. I realized then, as I understand now, that gang categorization is often more of a legal tactic than a matter of identity. ...
LINK: https://nyti.ms/31oeE9N (I hope that works)

The upshot is that any affiliation with what's perceived as a "gang" can raise flags and get folks in trouble. While we've spent a lot of time and pixels screaming "we're not 1%ers!" and "we're just a bunch of moto dorks online!", it's worthwhile to keep this in mind if/when you have any interaction with the PoPo.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:05 am

Well, shit. This thread seems positively prescient in light of current circumstances.

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Bigshankhank » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:09 pm

Jaeger wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:05 am
Well, shit. This thread seems positively prescient in light of current circumstances.

--Jaeger
Black Lives Matter

Looking back through some of my posts in this thread seem positively naive.
It's time for Humankind to ditch the imaginary friends of our species' childhood and grow the fuck up.
-Davros

"Lasse mich deine Seele dem Herrscher der Finsternis opfern"

Let me sacrifice your soul to the ruler of darkness

Always carry a bottle of whiskey when you travel in case of a snakebite. Futhermore, always carry a small snake.

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:12 am

Bigshankhank wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:09 pm
Black Lives Matter

Looking back through some of my posts in this thread seem positively naive.
The cops hassle everybody, that's a given. I'm a middle-aged white guy and I still get stopped occasionally (probably because I'm wandering around my nice neighborhood in the dark).

I think it's safe to say that we've always kind've known there was a disparity between how American cops treated other (i.e., non-white) ethnic groups, particularly blacks.

What I did not really appreciate is the magnitude of the disparity and just how massive a problem it is.

This isn't just about some cops being bigots. This is some larger systemic problem driven by police training, culture, media... and it's baked in. It's the result of the War on Drugs and the War on Terror and all that shit.

The War on Poverty. Damn, someone seriously misunderstood how that was supposed to be implemented. It's supposed to be a war on poverty, not the poor!

This thread was always (in my mind) meant to discuss the militarization of the police. The problems with that have been demonstrated in flying colors in the past few weeks.

What's astonishing to me is the spark. I watched enough of that video of Mr. Floyd getting choked to death to have a clear understanding of what was going on. That was a street execution, and anybody with any sense can see it. It went on for 9 minutes. People were saying "dude, you should get off him, he's gonna die" after like 5.

That spark set people on fire, and rightly so. People are PISSED. So what do the cops do? DROP THE HAMMER. Yeah, way to go, guys. Prove everybody right. And THEN they start going after black journalists while leaving the white ones alone?! REALLY?

And that's just Minneapolis. Then the rest of the country followed suit.

There is a big, big problem with police culture in this country. Like I said, I'm a middle-aged white guy who knows how to deal with people but I've had enough close encounters to make me leery of police.

I cannot fathom what it must be like dealing with police while black. Hell, I expect I'd have a lot more trouble on my "evening patrols" I mentioned above were I darker than I am.

That's going to be a difficult knot to untie. We've spent the past 18 years militarizing our police on top of centuries of systemic racism. Short of grinding up Valium in all the cops' food... (Anybody work for a donut shop?)

--Jaeger
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Thu Jun 11, 2020 11:17 am

Jaeger wrote:
Thu Jun 11, 2020 7:12 am
The cops hassle everybody, that's a given. I'm a middle-aged white guy and I still get stopped occasionally (probably because I'm wandering around my nice neighborhood in the dark).
Huh. Now, see, that's interesting.
I've been living in potato for almost 40 years now. The neighborhood I've been living in for the past 12 isn't nice or respectable.

I can count on the fingers of one hand how often I had to hand ID to a cop. Once because I had parked my car in front of someone's driveway (unlit street), and I had to pay the fine. Once, when I was still in school, and our group got the cops called on us because we were drunk and disorderly in a schoolyard (different school) on a Saturday night. And once at a demo, I think. Almost 20 years ago, so memory is a little hazy on the incident.

And that's it. I had to deal with cops on a few more occasions when out protesting, but I wasn't "stopped" or interrogated. More like cops were doing crowd control.

Cops over here aren't militarized. At >big< protest marches, or when someone takes hostages or does a terrorism, they may roll out the armored cars. Last time I saw one (in a TV report about a current event), they hadn't even gotten around to painting it blue (police in potato used to be green, EU regulation forced a change to blue).

At the same time, well. They are making with the jackboots in other regards. Bavaria has passed new police law (police is a state matter, not local) that will allow the cops to arrest a person because of "imminent danger". Some very rubbery language.
They may then hold a person for something like 30 days before even involving a judge, or concrete charges. And the judge may sign off on further detaining that person.
Cop unions in other states immediately began lobbying for that to be copied, of course. Can't let the opportunity to threaten people with arbitrary arrest and detention for non-specified periods just slip through their fingers.
Bavaria also lowered the legal restrictions that determine whether police may use explosives against someone. Explicitly explosives, not just pyro. Turns out that, as it stands now, in a situation where the cops are not legally permitted to draw the full-auto weapons, they may instead break out the C4.

And don't get me started on bodycams. While I, as a civilian, may not just film a cop without their consent, because privacy laws, they get to film anyone. BUT that footage may be used, almost exclusively, as evidence in situations (ranging from public insult to violence) where the cop is the victim. Demonstrating cop misbehavior is explicitly ruled out in some states, and even if there is bodycam footage of the blue fash braining a guy for no good reason, it's not admissible in court (not without a federal level court decision, afaik).
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by motorpsycho67 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am

The difference between cops in Germany and cops in the US is night and day. Entirely different experience.
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:27 am

motorpsycho67 wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 1:37 am
The difference between cops in Germany and cops in the US is night and day. Entirely different experience.
My experience overseas is pretty limited and hasn't really involved cops, thankfully.

That said, the vibe from the British cops is very different than American. Funny how that happens when you aren't carrying a gun.

--Jaeger
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:19 am

Jaeger wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:27 am

That said, the vibe from the British cops is very different than American. Funny how that happens when you aren't carrying a gun.

--Jaeger
The Bobby's charm is no longer quite so disarming.
AFAIK, while those walking their beat will often not be armed, they generally have firearms in their patrol cars.
Larger cities have SWAT teams, and when they expect a suspect to be armed, they don't fuck about.

That gag in Hot Fuzz, about everybody and their mum having guns. Like farmers, and farmers' mums. Not entirely inaccurate, apparently.
After the Dunblane massacre, cartridge handguns were outlawed completely. Except in Northern Ireland, where I expect gun control having an entirely different dimension.

Shotguns, meanwhile. Farmers, farmers' mums, and of course the landed gentry, and the upper-class twats that associate with them, they can get a permit for a side-by-side in a fairly straightforward manner, apparently. Someone living on a council estate wouldn't get such a permit, they will only see shooters carried by criminals, or by the SWAT teams that the Metropolitan Police employs.
The wrong door getting kicked down, and a brown person being shot, that is marginally more common in the urban parts of the UK than it is here in potato. Or so it appears to me, based on news I've seen.

Cops are a concentrate of common attitudes in a society, I think. In Britain, that does still include a large degree of racism. Until WW2, the population of brown people in the UK was insignificant, afaik. Outside of port cities, practically none.
Many immigrants came in a number of waves after WW2, as the Empire fell apart, or as former colonies got troubles (like when Amin expelled the Indian community from Uganda all at once).
So in Britain, a society without any "non-whites" is still in living memory, as are the ugly preconceptions and stereotypes that came with having an empire full of colonial subjects.
It's in fact so bad that the grandson of The Queen and his wife, a Duke and his Duchess, about as privileged as you can get in Britain without wearing the crown, didn't want to deal with the people of Britain any longer. I read a number of articles that mentioned racism directed at the Duchess as a significant part of why the two basically quit their Royal jobs.

So while getting Swatted in Britain isn't the near-death-sentence it may be for many brown people in the US, I wouldn't want to be a brown person when an armed bobby kicks down my door.
Actually, I think the older, less common nickname suits that sort of cop much better. "Peelers" (Sir Robert "Bobby" Peel had introduced the first organized, uniformed police force in the UK, in the 1820s).
A "Peeler" sounds adequately sinister, while the "Bobby" is ever so cute.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by Jaeger » Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:12 am

DerGolgo wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:19 am

Cops are a concentrate of common attitudes in a society, I think. In Britain, that does still include a large degree of racism. Until WW2, the population of brown people in the UK was insignificant, afaik. Outside of port cities, practically none.

...
Your point about the cops in the UK being armed is a good one. Still, I'd want my local constable to be able to respond to some asshole with a gun, especially if I were generally prevented from keeping a gun of my own. There's a big difference between having it in the car and having it on your hip.

My experience of race relations in Britain is that generally your accent counts as much or more than your complexion. I'm giving the perspective of a tourist and never really lived there. Overall though, the UK seems more integrated than we are. That would make sense since they nixed the slavery thing voluntarily several decades before we did and didn't put quite the effort into justifying all the racial horseshit for quite so long (the British colonies notwithstanding).

Again, from the perspective of a white middle-aged East Coast Yankee.

I suppose what's so shocking to me is that I really did thing we were doing better. My folks were raised by bigots (i.e., my grandparents) but went to school, got some space, and realized the bigotry was bullshit. They actively taught me that bigotry was bad. They'd lived through the Jim Crow days (Mom's hometown was still mostly segregated when i was a kid) and were proud that society had "gotten past" that sort of thing. They were comparing it to the 1940s and 50s, so in that sense yeah, it was "better."

It clearly ain't "better" enough in America. Certainly not consistently. And we haven't "gotten past" shit.

I'm afraid at least part of this is the result of Obama. Having a black president drove a bunch of people totally batshit... hence the Tangerine Jackass, at least in part. I honestly thought for a long time that wasn't the case, but the farther away from his administration we get the more it's clear to me that the ire directed at him was at least partially racially motivated. Sad but true.

Between that, the increasingly absurd war on drugs, and the ongoing clusterfuck that is our collective insanity after 9/11... which generated a bunch of retired/recovering soldiers who come home and become cops, and are given the same military-style equipment they had in Afghanistan or Iraq. Those, and the wannabe cops who think they're fighting for freedom back home... yeah, there's something wrong with police culture, and it's related to the problems with American culture. :(

--Jaeger
Bigshankhank wrote:The world is a fucking wreck, but there is still sunshine in some places. Go outside and look for it.
<<NEUTIQUAM ERRO>>
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Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Fri Jun 12, 2020 2:28 pm

Jaeger wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:12 am

I'm afraid at least part of this is the result of Obama. Having a black president drove a bunch of people totally batshit... hence the Tangerine Jackass, at least in part. I honestly thought for a long time that wasn't the case, but the farther away from his administration we get the more it's clear to me that the ire directed at him was at least partially racially motivated. Sad but true.
As society progresses, the regressive elements become more extreme. When racist shits will no longer feel at home in the middle of the bell-curve, they either adapt to what is going on there, or they slide down the long tail towards extremism.

As their outlook on life does not just become less and less acceptable in polite society, as the antithesis to their ideas does not just become the superficial norm but orthodoxy, they must yell louder, become more bellicose. No beast is as dangerous as one that knows it is dying, isn't it.
And don't you know it, DerG has an >extensive< opinion about the fash and centrist enablers. He thinks it's worth considering, but concedes it is a bit long.
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At the same time, though, society seems to be sliding right again. Being a loud-mouth xenophobe, homophobe, racist shit is becoming more and more socially acceptable again. And I'm not sure whether that is just some kind of final bump, that long tail of extremist rearing its ugly head one last time, or proper, societal regression.

One big problem seems to be that many people alive today don't really remember the great social struggles of the past. Civil rights, gay rights, women's lib, all that stuff is deep in the past. Far too many people have grown up where all of that is a given, is normal, standard.
Which is as it should be.
Unfortunately, when they then encounter anyone trying to agitate for those causes, they are aggravated. For one, what's up with that, that's been settled long ago, what do they want now?
Then the dread idea develops. Maybe they have a point. If they have a point, I'd have to do something. I don't want to do anything.

And so, to "get rid" of those troublemakers, to let them rationalize living their life and not even thinking about social struggles of minority groups, people latch on to bullshit ideas like horseshoe theory.
Political spectra aren't remotely that simplistic, and reducing a bunch of really complicated stuff to a two-dimensional graph is just how self-declared centrists rationalize paying no attention to any of those politics at all.
No, they aren't listening to both sides and making up their mind. That is just what they say. So long as they keep up that pretense, they don't have to plant their hoof on any side of any line.
They figure, to an outside observer, they must look remarkably similar to an admirable rationalist, carefully considering the arguments of either side. When, in fact, they are barely aware of ongoing discourse or current issues. If they do notice something going on, it's only when it affects them personally, and their personal comfort. And when that happens, they do seem to enjoy pulling out the centrist card to justify acting like any generic, petite bourgeois, xenophobic, homophobic, transphobic jackass.

No, no, I'm a centrist, see how I...
No, fuck off, a centrist isn't defined by waffling about and pretending to never take a side, nor by any meaningless pretense to considering the arguments of both sides when that consideration intentionally never produces a decision.

The argument of the people on the right is that the rights of a human are directly proportional to how much sunlight their skin will reflect.
The argument of the people on the right is that homosexuals and transsexuals belong in a closet and, if they are made to suffer discrimination, that's their own damn fault, while any violence they suffer is well deserve.
The argument of the people on the right is that ethnicity, socio-cultural backgorund, religion, or country of birth, determine that a person should drown miserably when all they were looking for was safety from prosecution, work for wages that let a person live a life of some dignity, a better future for their family, or just not fucking being killed in a civil war.
The argument of the people on the right is that nth wave feminism must be undone, women have too many rights and too many privileges these days.
Anyone who figures a centrist should be listening to any of this stuff. Isn't a centrist. Isn't in the middle.
No, that person is a regressive tit, who is too lazy, or too cowardly, to take a side.
All these issues were decided long ago. Treating jackasses who are desperate to wind the clocks back 60 years with the same attention as people who are trying to end the oppression of a group, be it their own or one they stand in solidarity with. Making like someone trying to address a current issue, events of the present day really doesn't deserve any more attention than someone who wants to play an era they are probably two or more generations removed from.
Anyone equating the import of these groups.
Is not in the center of anything except perhaps their own, personal little reality, where they are the sole arbiter of all that is good and right and isn't those things, and nobody can make them care about anything, let alone do anything about it.

What is more, fascism.
Society, the whole country (whichever of either is your own) didn't have this conversation 60 years ago, no.
The whole damn world didn't even have that conversation.
No, the world had A FUCKING WORLD WAR that eventually became humankind's first FUCKING NUCLEAR WAR!
Millions died fighting fascism, millions died defending fascism.
The world is not caught between fascism on one side, and anti-fascism on the other, either side equally bad because equally extremist, and the non-violent, non-threatening, non-activist people caught in the center.
Events of 80 fucking years ago have demonstrated beyond doubt or confusion, sans ambiguity: fascism is fucking evil. Being opposed to fascists should be the default position for any fucking person!

There is no mitigating value in fascism. Nor is there any ambiguity. If you are not part of the opposition, if you are not opposed to fascism. If you don't, at the very least, make up your mind not to help fascism, and you try to steer your life accordingly. Doing the absolute minimum, like telling your colleaguesaround the watercooler "Remember guys, fascism bad."
If you don't do any of that. If you won't even do the latter. Then you are helping the fascists.
That is how fascist politics work, and have ever worked. They rely on a large number of people preferring order to progress, and are too engrossed in their personal life to give a fuck about politics. Shut up, don't give a fuck, let other people deal with the everything.
That is what the fascists want. Anyone acting like that is literally giving the fascists exactly what they fucking want.
So if you don't wholly and justifiably identify as anti-fa. You are fa.
Jaeger wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 11:12 am
Between that, the increasingly absurd war on drugs, and the ongoing clusterfuck that is our collective insanity after 9/11... which generated a bunch of retired/recovering soldiers who come home and become cops, and are given the same military-style equipment they had in Afghanistan or Iraq. Those, and the wannabe cops who think they're fighting for freedom back home... yeah, there's something wrong with police culture, and it's related to the problems with American culture. :(

--Jaeger
You should be so lucky to have Iraq or Afghanistan vets in your police force.
Worst case scenario: they are just as brutal and evil as any other cop, only they know which way to bolt the laser sight on their rifle.
But best case scenario: they served after the leaks, and they internalized the rules of engagement they had subsequently been given there.
We've all seen enough memes, read enough posts and articles. Somehow, GIs dealing with suspects in asymmetrical warfare, where the other guys are not a bunch kids with 9mm handguns, and who've never even seen a shooting range from the outside. When, instead, the GIs are dealing with large numbers of battle-hardened fanatics, armed with full-auto AK rifles, grenades, fucking RPGs, remote detonated IEDs. And yet, somehow, when the GIs are doing their job, they manage not to shoot up any random brown person, they manage not to beat the shit out of some kid who was giving lip, they somehow can do their job while facing a vastly more dangerous and massively better equipped enemy, can arrest these people who don't even understand commands yelled in English, they mange to bring them to debriefing without any detectable blood loss.
Suppose cops recruited from those more recent Afghanistan and Iraq vets. Guys who managed to get out of a battlefield alive and sufficiently unharmed to work as cops. They should have a non-trivial chance to do their job and not behave like a the revolting fucks we are seeing mentioned in the news with this depressing regularity.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

SECO
Magnum Jihad

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by SECO » Mon Jun 22, 2020 12:56 pm

The situation between the Burkenstock Bolsheviks & Black Lives Matter vs cancelling the police is way too convoluted to be put in a nutshell. This is where most people need to seek out raw footage, watch mainstream and alternative news. Most people don't have enough time to sort through all the garbage on all the sides to get to THE TRUTH. It's in there, but you just about have to use an excavator to get there.

That being said, through all of this, there have been very few times in my life I have drawn emotional tears. The birth of my children, tears of joy. My daughter's dance recitals, tears of beauty. My parents funerals, tears of loss and relief. All that I can count on my hands over the course of my life.

Then there are the last tears I shed, the ones of rage, when the berserk of my Viking ancestry comes out. The last tears I shed were upon seeing the murder of David Dorn in St. Louis. He was a 77 year old Black retired police captain, trying to protect a Black owned pawn shop from being looted. Shot and left for dead over a TV. How do I know it was over a TV? That's all the kid filming him immediately after the shooting could apparently do or say. The real travesty: no one around Mr. Dorn had the presence of mind to actually render aid to the man. If it would have been me, I'd at least plugged the wound with a finger and had the others help load him in a car and haul ass to the nearest ER. At least the kid did try to comfort him by telling him to "hold on, it'll be ok G", I suppose. Dorn's death was barely a blip on the mainstream media.

AFAIC first aid should be a mandatory class in 6th, 8th, 10th, and 12th grades. Could have "saved just one life"!

Now, on to Floyd and Brooks. Did they deserve to die? Undoubtedly, NO! Were they decent human beings? Questionable. Both had rap sheets for violent crimes. (Not that the cops responding would know.) Both were committing crimes when contacted by police. (Hence the cops being there.) Both were under the influence of drugs/alcohol. (Not that the cops would initially know.) Both resisted arrest.

Michael Brown, easily 3x the man the cop was, gets upset because the officer wanted to ask him some questions (which matched the description and video of a suspect that committed robbery and assault earlier that day), then proceeded to pummel the officer in his car and reach for the cop's gun. If it would have been me, I'd jammed my foot on the floor and held onto a body part, trying to keep the pistol in holster. That's what I've taught the ladies in my life to do in case of carjacking. Sorry, me or them, gonna be me. When riots break out, would rather be with the roof top Koreans.

These are the people that BLM riot over, shows the moral bankruptcy, not only in BLM and the Burkenstock Bolsheviks, but mainstream media coverage, also.

Now, I'm not saying all cops are even remotely saints. I can see nothing but problems when the biggest ex-soldier recruiters are the cops. Matter of fact, they get preferential treatment in the hiring process. Being a cop is not similar to soldiering. Cops aren't supposed to go higher than control, sometimes shooting to stop is the only thing they can do to gain control. Military has the option of decimate. Yes, they have rules of engagement. I've worked with enough ex soldiers, that fully half have the maturity and fortitude to be good cops. The other half are ones that worry me. I've seen enough of civilians that go into law enforcement, and there's fewer of them that get that itchy trigger finger, but some still do. It's up to the ones that work with them to not tolerate that talk, question them on it, and if they continue, push it to the supervisor. "This guy is gonna kill someone or get me killed, you better straighten him out."

‍‍Personal observations off of the initial post: I was once told that "Sheriffin' is different than coppin'." From personal experience, that holds true. That's coming from a western state. Even in that there's a huge difference between rural and urban sheriffs. Denver county sheriff's office doesn't have to adhere to POST (peace officer standards and training), thanks to their Union. The Union stated that Denver was different because it was a City/County. Now we have Broomfield, another City/County. It still stands for Denver to be exempt, but not any of the other counties.

Rural deputies are, for the most part, more rational, more tempered, more in touch with the people they serve. One I know of, his jurisdiction is HALF of Las Animas county. This is the county Bloomberg insulted. For perspective this county is bigger than Rhode Island. The rest of the deputies are in the west end of the county. Of course, his job is made easier because the people in his jurisdiction are more civilized than the majority of people in urban centers. They tend to police themselves, the way the constitutional writers intended.

Union tenure seems, and often times, is the same for police and educators: the Union protects the trash. I have problems with that aspect of government employee unions.

On another post: I have seen it first hand, there is a war on poor people. In the courts, and society. I mean, why is it that they check your arrest record? If "innocent until proven guilty" is true, shouldn't they be checking your conviction record? Just because you were arrested, doesn't mean you'll get convicted of something... Due process is supposed to get in the way. Right?

When you're arrested and can't afford an attorney, they'll appoint one for you. Bet that works out, Public Pretender gets told they're your attorney for the state paid flat fee. Let's say you're innocent, but in this position, you now have 2 choices: take your chances with a jury made up of "reasonable people" that don't want to be there either, or take a plea from a DA that's just looking for conviction numbers to bolster his chances of getting appointed to a bench.

I'm sorry, I don't see many reasonable people anymore. Think it would be a good defence in court. Except FISA court, that's a whole other hornets nest.

Don't get me started on mandatory minimum sentences. There we go, I wrote a dissertation anyway.

User avatar
DerGolgo
Zaphod's Zeitgeist
Location: Potato

Re: JACKBOOTED THUGS

Post by DerGolgo » Tue Jun 23, 2020 8:19 am

I wrote a whole thing.
I might post it later.

@SECO
That a violent criminal murdering a man over a TV brings out your "viking rage", and your tears of rage.
But a police officer, sworn to uphold the law and protect the public. Slowly killing a man over a $20 accusation. Not paying attention to a man pleading for air with his dying breath. Does not.
Or another police officer shooting a man in the back. Because of a DUI. Does not, either.

That, rather, you feel you must list all sorts of misdeeds and character flaws for George Floyd and Rayshard Brooks. Which, as a debate tactic, is known as poisoning the well.
Including propagating as fact a lie that video footage contradicts.
Your implicit suggestion that the needless, extrajudicial killings by police should not enrage anyone as much as a robber shooting someone should.

That you bring out bullshit terms like Burkenstock Bolsheviks in your desperate attempt to de-legitimize the protests. Of people fucking demanding nothing more the same right to stay alive that white people get as a matter of course.
When the violence erupted, again and again, not from the side of the protesters, but from the police forces.

All of those, and more.
Suggest to me that you are not a person I even want to know, let alone administer a board for.

I'm not a piece of shit, in that I don't presume to "own" this place, and won't banhammer you just for this.
That being said.
Your screed. Makes me fucking sick.
If there were absolutely anything to be afraid of, don't you think I would have worn pants?

I said I have a big stick.

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